Jason AllDay - Penalty Strokes for Slow Play?

[jgreen85]

Just now, No Mulligans said:

Imagine a stroke penalty being the difference for the player between first and second place.  A more than $500,000 situational penalty.  That would be pretty extreme.

easily avoidable - don't play slow - shot clock violations are turnovers, many nba games decided by one or two possessions. Delay of game penalties consistently end drives in football. And, oh yea, the old saying from the bums in College Station "We didn't lose, we just ran out of time," but sometimes true - NBA/NFL/NHL teams making decisions b/c the game is about to END. 

Finish your round in a very comfortable 4 hrs. Very, very low bar.

1 minute ago, Big Lex said:

I think it's hard to do (some disagree  ) but a shot clock would be perfect. I think every player should get one or two "timeouts" as well, so that they can spend a bit more time occasionally in the round if they think they need it.

The problem with the current pace of play thing is that it's relative and one person can screw it up for an entire group. If every player has the same clock, then it's fair. They can learn to plan and execute a shot in a minute or whatever the appropriate standard is.

I like the idea of timeouts too. Another option is to give them a total amount of time, say 72 shots at 3min each. If the player plays a shot in 2min that gives him/her an extra minute to use on another shot. Imagine a guy in contention on sunday trying to beat both the clock and his competitor. Would add drama and not reduce it imo.

[Big Lex]

A great way to implement a shot clock would be to beta test it in the NCAA or on the Web.com tour.

[GolfLug]

27 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

The officials for the tournament have an estimated time to play each hole. If a group is being where they should be, then a rules official will start timing them per hole. This is where they would determine if they get penalized.

Day takes way too long to putt. He, along with many other players, also wait until the other player hits before taking with his caddy about club selection, wind, aim point etc. He should have done that while the other guy was getting ready. That's where the real time loss is.

Agreed, except for in match play I am assuming they are only somewhat decided as to what club/where aim/how aggressive/defensive shot they need to play depending on the opponent's just hit shot, so they wait. Maybe. I feel like match play takes longer in general. Putting read time is beyond ridiculous though.

[Elmer]

Think of the compelling television coverage on sunday. You 2 main draws are in contention and the tournament is decided by a slow play penalty!!!!!

You dont bring in the youth or keep viewers or have compelling competition by having the Masters decided by slow play penalties.

However you need to do something to teach the young players that slow play is unacceptable. 

 

 

[bmartin461]

35 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

The officials for the tournament have an estimated time to play each hole. If a group is being where they should be, then a rules official will start timing them per hole. This is where they would determine if they get penalized.

Day takes way too long to putt. He, along with many other players, also wait until the other player hits before taking with his caddy about club selection, wind, aim point etc. He should have done that while the other guy was getting ready. That's where the real time loss is.

@boogielicious, thank you for the explaination, makes sense and seems like there are some ways to fairly implement it.  

[bkuehn1952]

There must be something about the name "Day".  Previous to Jason, there was Glen "All" Day, the last man to receive a one-stroke penalty for slow play at a regular PGA Tour event.

[Valleygolfer]

25 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

I think it's hard to do (some disagree  ) but a shot clock would be perfect. I think every player should get one or two "timeouts" as well, so that they can spend a bit more time occasionally in the round if they think they need it.

The problem with the current pace of play thing is that it's relative and one person can screw it up for an entire group. If every player has the same clock, then it's fair. They can learn to plan and execute a shot in a minute or whatever the appropriate standard is.

Good ideas Lex.  I just think the rule is the rule and as much as it would suck for someone, they would get it in gear.

[DaveP043]

Here's what I understand about the PGA Tour's slow play policy.  This comes from about.com, but I've read the same thing in a number of other places.

Once a group falls out of position and behind the desired pace, a rules official or Tour official will notify all players in the group that the group is being put "on the clock." Once a group is on the clock, PGA Tour officials begin timing each player. Once that timing of a group begins, each player has 40 seconds to play each stroke, except in the following cases when he has 60 seconds:

• He is the first of his group to play from the teeing ground of a par-3 hole;
• He is the first to play a second shot on a par-4 or par-5;
• He is the first to play a third shot on a par-5;
• He is the first player to play around the putting green;
• He is the first to play on the putting green.

A player who can't meet those requirements is informed that he has a "bad time." A bad time can, in theory, lead to penalty strokes or even disqualification from a PGA Tour event. 

To my knowledge, the PGA hasn't assessed a penalty stroke for slow play in decades.  A young amateur was given a stroke penalty at the Masters a couple years back.  With the money these guys play for, a fine, even as much as $20,000, is too insignificant to make a difference.  Assess them a stroke, and they'll start to pay attention.  Assess a stroke to a "star", and it really shows they mean business.

[DrvFrShow]

Those look reasonable.

The thing is that the PGA doesn't want their tournament winner decided by a penalty stroke for slow play. The USGA doesn't care about that for amateurs and will assess the penalties because there's no money involved. Money talks. That's the bottom line.

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, DrvFrShow said:

Those look reasonable.

The thing is that the PGA doesn't want their tournament winner decided by a penalty stroke for slow play. The USGA doesn't care about that for amateurs and will assess the penalties because there's no money involved. Money talks. That's the bottom line.

Very very few of us play in a competition where the USGA sets the "slow play" policy, they only run a few tournaments a year, so the USGA will never be assessing a slow play penalty of any kind against ME.  Pace of play issues usually end up being the responsibility of a club's tournament committee as far as establishing a policy, and the responsibility of the pro staff to enforce it.  The Masters had no problem assessing a stroke penalty on an amateur, but that's the only stroke penalty I've heard of for a long time.  I just wish that the PGA Tour will actually enforce their own existing rules consistently.  A stroke penalty seems to me to be "fair," in that it ends up being a much larger monetary cost for someone who's going to make a much larger paycheck. If the pros speed up, those of us who hack our way around will have better role models for pace of play.

All of this talk about the PGA Tour and their policy has me wondering, the tournament last weekend wasn't a PGA event, it was run as a WGC event.  Does anyone know if the WGC has a slow play policy similar to the PGA or the European tours?

[Wansteadimp]

5 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Very very few of us play in a competition where the USGA sets the "slow play" policy, they only run a few tournaments a year, so the USGA will never be assessing a slow play penalty of any kind against ME.  Pace of play issues usually end up being the responsibility of a club's tournament committee as far as establishing a policy, and the responsibility of the pro staff to enforce it.  The Masters had no problem assessing a stroke penalty on an amateur, but that's the only stroke penalty I've heard of for a long time.  I just wish that the PGA Tour will actually enforce their own existing rules consistently.  A stroke penalty seems to me to be "fair," in that it ends up being a much larger monetary cost for someone who's going to make a much larger paycheck. If the pros speed up, those of us who hack our way around will have better role models for pace of play.

All of this talk about the PGA Tour and their policy has me wondering, the tournament last weekend wasn't a PGA event, it was run as a WGC event.  Does anyone know if the WGC has a slow play policy similar to the PGA or the European tours?

I think the PGA rules team runs the WGCs in the US and the European Tour runs the one in China.

The policies are markedly different now as Speith found out in Abu Dhabi (Dubai?) this year.

The European Tour has historically been tougher on slow play, I think it was a European rules official (John Paramore?) that gave the penalty to the amateur at the Masters.

[DaveP043]

Thanks,, @Wansteadimp , that all makes sense.  The WGC doesn't run enough events to have their own full-time officials.  I did read a bit about Speith, and it sounds like the allowed times on the European Tour are not much different that the PGA's times.  Perhaps its just that the European Tour officials have more guts than the PGA officials.  I still say that it won't take more than two or three stroke penalties being assessed, or even just one to a big name player in contention,  to change the habits of most of the players out there.  A guy misses the cut, or loses a couple hundred thousand bucks finishing T3 instead of 2, and they'll learn.

[boogielicious]

If we think about this in relative terms, it takes me and 3 of my buddies four hours to play 18 holes on average walking. With our HC, that is about 370 strokes or about 0.65 minutes per stroke (240 min/370 strokes). If four PGA Tour pros take 4 hours for a round, at an average of par, they are taking 0.83 minutes per stroke. They are taking longer per stroke that we are and we suck. They are walking an extra 700 yards or so, but that doesn't add up to that much, maybe 6-8 minutes.

Horschel says Day/McIlroy took four hours for 2 to play 18. That double the rate. Sloth-like.

[DrvFrShow]

Lydia Ko's group got put on the clock at an LPGA event. They were taken off the clock. Then put back on it. No penalties were assessed. Officials were watching that group very closely. I thought it was a bit unfair considering the weather was a mess. 

For the weekend warrior: To me for the first person, 60 seconds to hit a ball from the time you reach your ball is plenty. You have 15 seconds to take your distance with your range finder, then make your club selection. Take a couple of practice swings, line up the shot, approach the ball and hit. While you've done that the others in your foursome can take their distance and make their club selection (unless they're right next to you), but then they can pull the club right after you hit. All they have to do is take a practice swing, line up and hit. Play goes faster. How hard can it be?

A walking foursome should be able to finish a round in 4 hours on a typical course. They can go a bit longer depending upon terrain and distance from greens to tee boxes if the courses are spread out. But that's walking time between holes, not playing time that makes the round longer.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Big Lex said:

I don't like the idea of fining the player....this penalty hurts the average or struggling player much more than the uber-rich top 20 player. Stroke penalties are essentially the same thing as a fine.

So I don't think there is a lot you can do about it. We are stuck with it. Unless they want to use technology and create a true shot clock, which I wouldn't be opposed to seeing in professional tournaments. But that would be a b!tch to develop and get right.

Uhhh, if someone is slow, fine them or penalize them. If you want to make the fine fairer, fine them 10% of what they make in that event, but pardon me for not pitying a $5k fine paid by a guy who finishes 110th on the money list but still makes a million+ dollars per year playing golf.

We aren't stuck with it. We're only stuck if we choose to be stuck.

[Big Lex]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

Here's what I understand about the PGA Tour's slow play policy.  This comes from about.com, but I've read the same thing in a number of other places.

Once a group falls out of position and behind the desired pace, a rules official or Tour official will notify all players in the group that the group is being put "on the clock." Once a group is on the clock, PGA Tour officials begin timing each player. Once that timing of a group begins, each player has 40 seconds to play each stroke, except in the following cases when he has 60 seconds:

He is the first of his group to play from the teeing ground of a par-3 hole;
He is the first to play a second shot on a par-4 or par-5;
He is the first to play a third shot on a par-5;
He is the first player to play around the putting green;
He is the first to play on the putting green.

A player who can't meet those requirements is informed that he has a "bad time." A bad time can, in theory, lead to penalty strokes or even disqualification from a PGA Tour event. 

To my knowledge, the PGA hasn't assessed a penalty stroke for slow play in decades.  A young amateur was given a stroke penalty at the Masters a couple years back.  With the money these guys play for, a fine, even as much as $20,000, is too insignificant to make a difference.  Assess them a stroke, and they'll start to pay attention.  Assess a stroke to a "star", and it really shows they mean business.

Thanks for posting this.

I have a couple of problems with the policy. The first, which many people have mentioned, is that they have a policy but seem to enforce it arbitrarily. Either the groups are 100% successful in speeding up when on the clock, or they are reluctant to actually assess the penalties, in which case they are using the clock only to scare the players, which I don't like.

The second thing I don't like is that there is no absolute criterion. You only get watched if you fall behind another group. So if on a given day, every group decides to play 6 hour rounds, that's fine (exaggerating to make a point), and nobody would get penalized. I think you establish a rule and you stick to it an make them play at a certain pace, all the time, if you are going to bother to do it at all.

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

Uhhh, if someone is slow, fine them or penalize them. If you want to make the fine fairer, fine them 10% of what they make in that event, but pardon me for not pitying a $5k fine paid by a guy who finishes 110th on the money list but still makes a million+ dollars per year playing golf.

For the sake of brevity I didn't expand on this in that original posting....but the point was not that we can't get tough with people, it's just that current penalties (as I understand them) are nominally equal but don't mean the same thing to different classes of player. So the incentive to avoid slow play isn't equal....and the penalty is little more than a nuisance for top players.  So you need something else. Stroke penalties would I guess be more proportional, as would your (good) idea of fining them a percentage of winnings.

We are stuck with it unless they change the system somehow to get players' attention and get them changing their habits beforehand. Right now, the system is reactionary. The player doesn't have to do anything different unless he falls behind. So they all simply adjust as needed in certain situations, but overall they keep playing in the same, very deliberate and slow manner.

I love the shot clock idea. It would pose more logistical problems than anything....how do you clock 100+ guys who are all over the golf course? Would either require 100+ individual timekeepers, or some other system.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

For the sake of brevity I didn't expand on this in that original posting....but the point was not that we can't get tough with people, it's just that current penalties (as I understand them) are nominally equal but don't mean the same thing to different classes of player. So the incentive to avoid slow play isn't equal....and the penalty is little more than a nuisance for top players.

Right. So penalizing them 10% of their tournament finish as a flat tax of sorts negates that issue.

Plus, a two-stroke penalty that takes you from 2nd to 4th costs a helluva lot more than the same penalty that takes you from 44th to T53rd.

I hate slow play and I support almost everything done to help end it.

[natureboy]

2 hours ago, jgreen85 said:

I like the idea of timeouts too. Another option is to give them a total amount of time, say 72 shots at 3min each. If the player plays a shot in 2min that gives him/her an extra minute to use on another shot. Imagine a guy in contention on sunday trying to beat both the clock and his competitor. Would add drama and not reduce it imo.

I love the 'bank' of minutes idea, because it actually rewards naturally fast players with some time they can use strategically wherever they may see a personal benefit (facing a tough shot, need a mental re-set, calm nerves at end of round).

Some way to 'stop the clock' to deal with lost balls / requests for rulings would be needed.