2016 U.S. Open at Oakmont Discussion Thread

[natureboy]

46 minutes ago, iacas said:

It was also significantly closer to the ball than a footfall. And vibrations, etc. don't need blades of grass to be interleaved. You can cause a ball to move, too, by altering wind patterns. Or swatting at a fly and the resulting air movement…

The same exact way this was handled: by considering what is the most likely cause of the ball's movement.

The timing was quite different.

I'm not saying they didn't make the correct legalistic ruling given the wording of the rule. The legalistic out for the Frenchman's situation is kinda where the forest is being lost for the trees IMO. Functionally it was weight on the ground near the ball that caused both balls to move. Yes they are protecting the field by applying the rules uniformly (as written), but the 'timing' thing adds gray area.

I do think that the Frenchman likely pressed down on the ground behind the ball as he soled the putter and it just took a bit longer for the ball to respond. Same essential cause, but different ruling. IMO that indicates a problem with the rule. I personally think swatting at a fly, sneezing in the direction of the ball, loud flatus, talking above a whisper, or altering wind patterns is not equitable cause for a penalty.

There is no way to prove from video evidence that a player may be resting more than the weight of the club on the ground. Essentially DJ gets a penalty and the other guy doesn't because it was obvious that his putter 'did something' active closer to when the ball moved. In the normal course of playing golf, I don't think a light tap of the ground on the putting surface should be enough to dislodge a ball. Because of the green speeds, this became a situation where the rules interfere with / overshadow normal play. The 'test' of a Major is already hard enough without having to focus on such minutia.

Say in fairly taking a stance in a bunker the pressure of your feet into the sand causes vibrations and the sand under the ball on a steep bank shifts causing the ball to move. Penalty, right? Isn't the player functionally prevented from fairly taking a stance if they find their ball is in such a position?

Edited June 20, 2016 by natureboy

[tdiii]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

No they didn't. 

You have to weight the evidence at hand. Was it a windy day, no. Was the greens sloped and fast, yes. Was his ball struggling not to move when he placed it back down after marking it, no. I think that is the key there. The ball was near the hole, not on a ridge. He routinely practices his putts extremely close to the ball. He grounded his putter next to the ball before lifting it to place it behind the ball. You can see in the video he hesitates to ground the putter behind the ball because he notices that the ball is shifting. He hovers the putter and than backs the putter away so the ball doesn't roll into it.  

So we ask what is the most likely cause? It is DJ grounding the club very near to the ball most likely caused it to shift slightly enough to slowly move as he was addressing the ball. 

Yes he deserved a penalty. It was correctly applied. 

 

When he placed his club next to the ball, did it move?  No.

When he removed his club from the ground, did it move?  No.

The ball moved thereafter.

He did not cause it to move.  "Cause" is to defined as "to make something happen."  He did not make this happen. 

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, tdiii said:

They need to explain their application of the rule.

Read the Decision. It's all right there. Dustin is most likely the cause of the ball's movement.

9 minutes ago, tdiii said:

No. Players should not be allowed to cause their ball to move without making a stroke.  Whether they cause it to move or not, it is replaced.

Sorry, no, that's not the rule. If you want to discuss what the rule should be, use the other thread:

9 minutes ago, tdiii said:

The "stop reacting with your guy comment" is an obvious case of transference. You want the USGA to be right so you lash out at commonsense reactions of others. Get over it.

It's not. I'm asking you to use reason, not just say what you think your gut reaction is.

The Rules of Golf have been around for over a century. They've been vetted. Some rules change you come up with in your mind two minutes after some event occurs is unlikely to be a better version. Think, don't just spout.

9 minutes ago, tdiii said:

Yes.  The USGA misapplied or misinterpreted the rule.  DJ did not cause the ball to move. 

If he didn't, what did? See also @saevel25's response that he posted as I was writing this.

2 minutes ago, xcott said:

We don't know that it didn't move. It very well could have, but there wasn't a person standing right next to it watching it intently.

Yes, we do. That is not up for debate at all.

2 minutes ago, xcott said:

I think they probably didn't misapply or misinterpret, I think that they came to the wrong conclusion on the % chance it was Dustin who made the ball move. 

I don't agree, and Dustin couldn't name anything else that caused his ball to move.

If you have a murder suspect who had motive, means, and opportunity and cannot put forth any reasonable alternate theories as to how someone was killed, odds are that person is going to jail… and that has a much higher standard than "most likely."

[rolopolo]

Justin probably got a bad break there, but FFS, it's clear as day that they applied the rule correctly. That's the thing with rules, they are there for a reason. If one makes a rule it has to be applied under all circumstances, otherwise the whole rulebookgoes tits up.

Also, I think the USGA did OK. IN hindsight yes it could have been handled better, but it aint that easy. They took their time until they found they got it right. Kudos to them for having the balls to apply it correctly.

[coachjimsc]

So in essence, the USGA is calling DJ a liar 51% of the time. 

My question is, why didn't they just penalize him immediately if no matter what he said after the round made no difference in their decision?

Sounded like they made up their minds way before the tournament was over.

[rolopolo]

Bit off topic, but the young lad getting roasted by Brandel Chamblee afterwards was awesome. I have always been jealous of people who can speak that well - live television, getting grilled, mega pressure, but still manages to speak sense and getting their point accross. I wouldn't get a word out in a situation like that.

[saevel25]

9 minutes ago, tdiii said:

He did not cause it to move.  "Cause" is to defined as "to make something happen."  He did not make this happen. 

It doesn't matter when the ball moved. If he grounded the club, and the ball moved even if he didn't address it then it's still him causing the ball to move by grounding the club. You weight the evidence. You don't have to be 100% certain. If the most likely cause is that DJ caused it to move then it's a penalty. 

You can tell Dustin notices the ball start to move. He's hesitant putting the club behind the ball. He hovers the putter, which he doesn't do when he putts. 

Here is his routine in slow motion from a different tournament. 

1. Practice Strokes
2. Grounds club
3. Address the ball
4. Grounds the club
5. Takes stroke

Everything is smooth and routine. Nothing out of the ordinary. 

Look at what he did on the putt from Sunday. This video is him going from just after number 2 to number 4 in his routine. 

1. Practice Strokes
2. Grounds club
3. Address the ball (see video)
4. Hesitates to ground the club
5. Takes stroke

You can see that he's noticed the ball starting to move as he addresses the ball. This means he picked up on the ball moving just after he grounded his club. Which means the ball started to move right after he grounded his club next to the ball. The most likely cause is that DJ caused the ball to move because he grounded his club near the ball on those greens. 

 

[Tee2Trees]

Bad ruling!!  He puts his putter on the ground next to the ball...and it doesn't move.  He lifts his putter up off the ground...and it doesn't move.  A full two seconds later he takes a small step forward to address the ball, and while hovering the putter it does move.

If you are trying to convince an intelligent person that the practice stroke is what caused it to move you will fail.  A slight movement of the ball doesn't follow from an action that occurred two seconds in the past.  This conclusion requires a leap of faith that runs counter to natural physics.

In fact the last thing Dustin does before the ball moves is when he takes the small step forward to address the ball.  So maybe the USGA or its defenders on here want to change their collective stance to say that he should be penalized because it was his stepping into the address position that caused enough ground shift to move the ball.  Fine, but that just means Oakmont is such a crappy and patently unfair golf course that the mere act of standing next to your golf ball to putt it carries a random possibility that the ground underneath will give way and cost you a penalty stroke.  Is that where we're at?

[rolopolo]

3 minutes ago, Tee2Trees said:

Bad ruling!!  He puts his putter on the ground next to the ball...and it doesn't move.  He lifts his putter up off the ground...and it doesn't move.  A full two seconds later he takes a small step forward to address the ball, and while hovering the putter it does move.

If you are trying to convince an intelligent person that the practice stroke is what caused it to move you will fail.  A slight movement of the ball doesn't follow from an action that occurred two seconds in the past.  This conclusion requires a leap of faith that runs counter to natural physics.

In fact the last thing Dustin does before the ball moves is when he takes the small step forward to address the ball.  So maybe the USGA or its defenders on here want to change their collective stance to say that he should be penalized because it was his stepping into the address position that caused enough ground shift to move the ball.  Fine, but that just means Oakmont is such a crappy and patently unfair golf course that the mere act of standing next to your golf ball to putt it carries a random possibility that the ground underneath will give way and cost you a penalty stroke.  Is that where we're at?

Interesting points, but over the course of 4 days there were thousands of balls at rest in positions with much more severe slopes, and those balls never moved. Balls don't just move, we all know that. Without wind, it requires insane slope and green speeds for a golf ball to just move by itself, no?

[saevel25]

5 minutes ago, Tee2Trees said:

Bad ruling!!  He puts his putter on the ground next to the ball...and it doesn't move.  He lifts his putter up off the ground...and it doesn't move.  A full two seconds later he takes a small step forward to address the ball, and while hovering the putter it does move.

It was not a full two seconds later. I just timed it. It was barely 1 second from the time he soled the putter, the putter touching the ground, till he starts to move it up to the ball. 

Again, you can tell DJ notices the ball starting to move since he doesn't ground the putter behind the ball like he does routinely for all of his other putts. 

You have to ask what caused the ball to move. The most likely cause is the putter being soled next to the ball before he addresses the ball. 

9 minutes ago, Tee2Trees said:

So maybe the USGA or its defenders on here want to change their collective stance to say that he should be penalized because it was his stepping into the address position that caused enough ground shift to move the ball.  

Actually, he doesn't take any step forward after taking his practice stroke and grounding the club. If stepping forward caused the ball to move then it's a penalty. Like if you step near a ball in the rough, you bend some of the grass, and the ball moves that is a penalty. 

10 minutes ago, Tee2Trees said:

Fine, but that just means Oakmont is such a crappy and patently unfair golf course that the mere act of standing next to your golf ball to putt it carries a random possibility that the ground underneath will give way and cost you a penalty stroke.  Is that where we're at?

It's not Oakmont, it might be more of the USGA's course set up.

I am of the opinion it was him grounding his club next to the ball that caused it to move. 

[Tee2Trees]

5 minutes ago, rolopolo said:

Interesting points, but over the course of 4 days there were thousands of balls at rest in positions with much more severe slopes, and those balls never moved. Balls don't just move, we all know that. Without wind, it requires insane slope and green speeds for a golf ball to just move by itself, no?

We only have video of whoever was in the top 5 contending for the lead (plus some extra Rory and Jordan coverage) and at the moment of address before the putt.  Seems more than likely that balls were oscillating like that on the greens all the time after they initially came to rest.

[JxQx]

From the video it looks like the shadow from the putter could have caused the ball to move, especially given the speed they are rolling at.

[Golfingdad]

5 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It was not a full two seconds later. I just timed it. It was barely 1 second from the time he soled the putter, the putter touching the ground, till he starts to move it up to the ball. 

 

Hate to give "evidence" to help the cause I don't agree with but ... I am pretty sure that video is in slow motion.  It's certainly not 2 seconds, but I don't think it's even 1 either.

It is enough time, however, that combined with other factors (speed and firmness of greens, fact that ball moved in a different direction than where he soled the club, not to mention the fact that we are looking at it from a funny angle with a long zoomed-in lens, so who knows how far away he really is from the ball [in your example of his routine, he's quite a ways away]) I'm still not willing to stipulate that it's necessarily much more than 50/50 that he caused it to move.

Which is why I'm still of the opinion that RO could have applied the penalty then and it'd been fine, but everything they did after was wrong.  There wasn't enough evidence (again, IMO) to warrant a revisit of the issue.

[boogielicious]

This is why I don't do practice strokes with my putter!

[Tee2Trees]

4 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Again, you can tell DJ notices the ball starting to move since he doesn't ground the putter behind the ball like he does routinely for all of his other putts. 

You have to ask what caused the ball to move. The most likely cause is the putter being soled next to the ball before he addresses the ball. 

Actually, he doesn't take any step forward after taking his practice stroke and grounding the club. If stepping forward caused the ball to move then it's a penalty. Like if you step near a ball in the rough, you bend some of the grass, and the ball moves that is a penalty. 

It's not Oakmont, it might be more of the USGA's course set up.

I am of the opinion it was him grounding his club next to the ball that caused it to move. 

You're right.  He doesn't take a step forward.  He actually just shifts more of his weight to the balls of his feet when he brings his putter into position, and that is the moment that the ball moves.  As an intensely fact-based person I will conclude that if it wasn't the wind or grass growing/straightening that caused the movement it was the weight shift of DJ as he leaned forward to address the putt that caused enough movement of the ground underneath to move the ball.  But for heaven's sake, it wasn't some tremor from soleing the club 1-2 seconds prior. 

Ultimately I would defer to the player's perception of the matter.  Otherwise you kinda promote cheating by letting the players know they essentially have NO HONOR nor are expected to have any.  We will look at super-slo-mo replays and assess penalties wherever we can based on "more-likely-than-not" standards which hold greater authority than the player or opponent who has a better view of the event in the first place.

[iacas]

37 minutes ago, coachjimsc said:

So in essence, the USGA is calling DJ a liar 51% of the time.

No. Plus, DJ clearly doesn't know the rule.

37 minutes ago, coachjimsc said:

My question is, why didn't they just penalize him immediately if no matter what he said after the round made no difference in their decision?

Because they didn't know at the time that he could not come up with a plausible cause for the ball moving.

37 minutes ago, coachjimsc said:

Sounded like they made up their minds way before the tournament was over.

It sounded to me like they knew the likely outcome but still wanted to give DJ the opportunity to come up with another reason.

15 minutes ago, Tee2Trees said:

We only have video of whoever was in the top 5 contending for the lead (plus some extra Rory and Jordan coverage) and at the moment of address before the putt.  Seems more than likely that balls were oscillating like that on the greens all the time after they initially came to rest.

Players are generally honest, and in all three cases, players told the RO that the ball moved.

This speaks to the unlikelihood of a bunch more players causing their balls to move and not reporting them.

3 minutes ago, Tee2Trees said:

Ultimately I would defer to the player's perception of the matter.  Otherwise you kinda promote cheating by letting the players know they essentially have NO HONOR nor are expected to have any.  We will look at super-slo-mo replays and assess penalties wherever we can based on "more-likely-than-not" standards which hold greater authority than the player or opponent who has a better view of the event in the first place.

Dustin didn't even know the rule, and when he called the RO over, he misrepresented the facts. He would have gotten the wrong ruling because he doesn't understand the rule or what "caused the ball to move" means.

[Fourputt]

36 minutes ago, rolopolo said:

Interesting points, but over the course of 4 days there were thousands of balls at rest in positions with much more severe slopes, and those balls never moved. Balls don't just move, we all know that. Without wind, it requires insane slope and green speeds for a golf ball to just move by itself, no?

Not really.  On greens as fast these, it can be something as little as a blade of grass fluffed up by a previous player walking there, virtually unnoticeable, and when the ball is replaced, it is leaning against that.  The blade holds for so long, then just releases, and there is no way of predicting how long that period might be, nor is there any way to prove exactly what happened.  

I'm not saying that this did happen, simply that it is one possibility of what could happen, and the player is still deemed as the cause, simply because there is no evidence that he wasn't.  

This is one reason why I'd like to see a separation in Rule 18, Ball at rest moved, making a slightly different requirement or procedure when the ball is on the putting green from how it is treated or viewed through the green.  The speeds of today's greens seem to point toward this almost being a necessity.  Other rules have different requirements for different parts of the course, so why not this one?  The issue seems to come up often enough that it would make sense to consider a revision to address this situation.

 

[xcott]

Exactly my point. We don't actually know how many balls may have moved. If DJ weren't watching the ball intently nobody would've noticed it moved. With the speed and slope of these greens the threshold of what can make the ball move has been lowered dramatically. 

Off the top of my head I can't think of a negative of allowing a player to replace a ball which was not moved via stroke on the green.