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Thinking of this has helped me.  What I mean is focus on clubhead and hands as opposed to thinking of shaft angle works better for me.  A circle on a plane.  

 

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OK, I didn't have time the other day, but I finally watched the "Sasho and Chris" video that iacas posted. It seemed to be all about laying the clubshaft down below the hand plane, thus shallowing out the approach and helping to square the clubface. I wish they had better mics or would speak up more because they weren't that easy to hear (of course it could be me), but I caught the reference to Sergio Garcia.

I saw another instructional vid where they demonstrated that what looks like Garcia "increasing his lag" at the initiation of the downswing, is actually him shallowing the club behind him. From a face on view it's kind of an optical illusion.

It has also become apparent to me that this is exactly what the Tour Striker "Educator" is all about. It's a device that "plugs into" the drip hole on your grip with a plastic arm that rides against the inside of your left forearm. At the "transition" the plastic arm is transferred from the inside to the outside of the left forearm, teaching the movement of shallowing the club.

Man! I have a lot of work to do!

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I love this whole thread and it is amazing. I think more people need to read this thread. I feel like so many beginning golfers struggle to understand this and how it impacts what your ball does. Steepness is a problem I am struggling with.

I am a little late to the party but something I did not see anyone talk about in the thread that has helped me is the weight transfer. I think weight transfer is extremely important because it frees up space behind you which allows your hands to drop/shallow out. If you don't transfer your weight forward to the target you won't free up the space behind you to allow the hands to shallow out.

Thank you to everyone in this thread for the great information.

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50 minutes ago, sirsteveo55 said:

 

I love this whole thread and it is amazing. I think more people need to read this thread. I feel like so many beginning golfers struggle to understand this and how it impacts what your ball does. Steepness is a problem I am struggling with.

 

There's a ton here! I think some folks can get it without too much trouble (needing a feel or two along with the basic idea), but some of us take longer to power through it.

For me, it's something I chip away at, just following the piece my instructor gives me. This thread has been great info to supplement the process.

But still elusive for me. I feel like I'm close at times, and in slow motion I can start to feel it naturally, so maybe this is the season I can speed up and keep the form.

Anyway, good luck!

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This may sound totally crazy , but I know of a device you might like. I hate training aids but the one has helped me. I've been able to get back to shooting a few par rounds. It's called the slice eliminator. I know it sounds like a gimmick, but it sure shallows out the path. If you can find another way to solve the plane issue let me know. Just thought I'd throw an idea out there.

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The videos in this topic are right on this topic of steepness:

 

This video in the tweet (the 3rd listed in that thread) is longer than the others, whereas the first two seem to promote a purchase, so I'll leave them off.

As for me, I've made strides this year, but injury has slowed the progress. I think as I come out of the winter, I'll have an improved transition that promotes more shallowing. We shall see. This thread has been pretty helpful for me to review from time to time. Different feels to try and solidify it all- come at the same problem from different angles. Plus the incredible detail of that Como/MacKenzie video to hammer home why this is so key. 

Good luck to anyone else working on this.

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On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 7:47 PM, RandallT said:

A brick wall for me seems to be my inability to shallow out my club on the downswing. For the past couple of years, this simple idea has been my nemesis, and I feel like I've been pretty open to changing the picture: slow practice swings, video, mirror. After a fair amount work each time I set out to fix my steepness, the result seems to be:

  1. Temporary improvement in the shallowness at fast speed (after much slow speed work), but not 100% 
  2. The impact always feels awkward, as I can't seem to sync my body with the club coming through this way
  3. The steepness returns over time as I play on the course- losing most, if not all, progress.

Specifically, I'm trying to go from this to this:

Screen Shot 2016-05-05 at 8.24.56 AM.pngScreen Shot 2016-05-05 at 8.25.20 AM.png

Each time I try, I am optimistic and think I can just DO IT. Make the change. So I'll stay positive this time around.

My instructor has me recording my practice in slow speed from A4 to A6, then stopping there. Then completing the swing.  Then doing a full speed swing.  So I'll do this over and over and over, and review the video each time. I will have some time to start this today.

So my questions  are:

  1. Have any of you overcome steepness in your downswing before?
  2. If so, what was your experience and any tips for others?
  3. How critical is the left wrist?
  4. The right elbow? 
  5. Left forearm rotation?
  6. Or could this be an issue of incorrectly starting the swing with the arms, rather than initiating from the ground up?
  7. All of the above, or it depends on each person's specific fault?
  8. I am trying to make sense of videos of various pros who do this correctly, but any tips to unlock a good "feel" for me would be welcome.

 

 

Try this.. but first the why..

Usually a downswing that starts to steepen happens because of what happened in the backswing. The shaft was "tipped" backwards with the flick of your wrists somewhere in the backswing. So an equal and opposite reaction of the "flick back" is a "flick forward" of the shaft causing the shaft to steepen or as we call it tipping the shaft forward.

So what you should "feel" like you're doing is have the club go back way more "shut" and "steep" than you're comfortable with. The trick is not to get it back shut with the counter-clockwise rotation of your wrists but by the left shoulder moving more down and under your chin. Kinda like you wanna reach your left arm to someone standing to your right but in a way that the glove logo looks down to the ground not point straight forward. Don't worry about the forearm rotation at all cause after this point it will "have to" naturally rotate clockwise or it will get stuck there.

It will feel weird at first but you will notice that on the downswing the shaft wants to shallow all by itself without you trying to do anything.

Hope this helps.

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I like @mvmac and his explanation of how to initiate the transition with early hip turn  to shallow out the swing rather than the purposeful  laying down of the club.  One thing I do sometimes (and I almost hesitate to tell people as many will disagree), is to keep my trail elbow pointed towards my belt buckle for as long as possible with the "feeling" of tracing a line  with the elbow during the back swing.  This keeps the triangle formed by the arms in  front of the body and elbow from going behind the shirt seam.  It is a tucking feeling, but not so much as your right elbow is glued to your torso. For me, it results (or seems to), shallow out the plane. 

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2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

So for the op,  once you succeed in shallowing what will be the benefit?

He will be one step closer to his idol, Sergio Garcia.

Not really. It's this:

You can skip to about 5:28, that's where the discussion about shallowing starts.

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Yes,  I have seen the result from his computer model of a golfer only using the left arm.

I have no reason to question the physics.  If you understand this then you can see that it really has nothing to do with any given call it a plane angle it's just force vectors at any given location relative to each other in time and space.

For some reason it seems to be a fad that this represents the end all be all of golf swing.  

Its not as if this is the only correct way to create a golf motion.  

This is a result of computer modeling that says if you are a one handed golfer who has trouble squaring the face then understanding this concept can help you.

 

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3 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

This is a result of computer modeling that says if you are a one handed golfer who has trouble squaring the face then understanding this concept can help you.

Not really, but I get what you mean.

For a lot of people, they currently swing over the plane. The face is shut, they slow their body's rotation to allow themselves the time to kind of drop the clubhead a little bit, and they fight pulls and cuts.

So for most people, "shallowing" is simply a matter of actually swinging on plane, not over it and left of it.

Analyzr Image Export.jpg

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I like the red line there a lot.  

My point is there's many functional golf swing clubhead paths.

It all depends on how we use the body. 

You can go deep or very upright either can be done well or poorly but imo neither is 'correct.'

Edited by Jack Watson

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5 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

I like the red line there a lot.  

My point is there's many functional golf swing clubhead paths.

It all depends on how we use the body. 

You can go deep or very upright either can be done well or poorly but imo neither is 'correct.'

So what's your point?

It's not like people are trying to get too shallow. They're steep, or too much "on top of" or "over" the plane, and they're trying to get closer to the plane.

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I guess my point is that steep has a negative connotation (or at least I interpret it that way) and shallow has a very positive one but either can repeat good golf shots equally well depending on what the golfer is doing.  There's some point where a person is too steep or too shallow but I can't say where that is.

I think people can get worked up about seeking a specific angle in the shaft but it's not what's most important.

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Just for the heck of it. I experimented with ways to shallow the plane. I tried early hip turn, then intentional lay off, and then just took the club back flatter in the first place.  All three worked fairly well, but the best way was for me to not even try and just use my regular swing. I did use my Universal Plane Station (tm) however, so that may have contributed. 

just kidding on the TM....haven't the time or inclination to pursue it.  No doubt somebody will though, it always seems to happen.

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12 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

I think people can get worked up about seeking a specific angle in the shaft but it's not what's most important.

yes it is.  

take it from someone that was much too steep a year ago and has worked hard to shallow the club.   a more shallow plane creates exponential gains in consistency.    

 

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1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

For some reason it seems to be a fad that this represents the end all be all of golf swing.  

Its not as if this is the only correct way to create a golf motion.  

3

 

4 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

once you succeed in shallowing what will be the benefit?

 

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

but either can repeat good golf shots equally well depending on what the golfer is doing.

 

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

think people can get worked up about seeking a specific angle in the shaft but it's not what's most important.

 

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

My point is there's many functional golf swing clubhead paths.

It all depends on how we use the body. 

You can go deep or very upright either can be done well or poorly but imo neither is 'correct.'

@Jack Watson, speaking just for me, and keeping in mind I've been working with an instructor on steady improvement of all my bad habits I formed over the years when I built my own "natural" swing (which was garbage). I've done what I consider to be a good job of listening to what my instructor tells me, working on the pieces he recommends- and investigating parts to make sure I buy into the "why", mainly for my own understand, not because I distrust the advice, I'll say this:

The movement of the hands from the top has been absolutely critical for me to get the club coming through more consistently and with more speed. In that diagram above you said you liked, my red line used to go down more vertically, causing the club to tip up.

I don't know how to express it, but I can just feel it all coming together now (not fully yet), but by training myself to do my hand path more like you see in that picture in red,  I can now feel the club coming around me more like a whip. I feel things come together nicely at impact.

The benefits I FEEL are tremendous. I feel like I can attack the ball with more confidence, more speed, more consistency- all that. This is NOT an exercise in getting angles to look pretty, or something like you're implying.

Again, for me, the approach you are advocating and living with the steepness that you see in Post #1, would've likely been a terrible approach. So if a reader is on the fence about it, and has an instructor that has recommended that they address their steepness, I'd say go for it. We are all different, but in my case, I'd lived with the steepness for decades. Good riddance- and any implication that for me that it wasn't a useful thing to do, well, I couldn't disagree more.

The video that @billchao has posted is 100% on target for me. I now understand why I was "fighting" the club at impact with compensations because of what I was doing naturally from the top. I can't say enough about that video for me- obviously YMMV, as you seem to think it's a fad. That's fine, but I wholeheartedly disagree. 

 

1 hour ago, Hacker James said:

Just for the heck of it. I experimented with ways to shallow the plane. I tried early hip turn, then intentional lay off, and then just took the club back flatter in the first place.  All three worked fairly well, but the best way was for me to not even try and just use my regular swing.

You can change your swing that fast???? Just think of the approach and try 3 things?? Wow, I'm slow then. This has taken me a LOOOOOONG time, with tons of slow motion practice. Trial and error of many of the feels in this thread and from my instructor. Epiphanies that vanish, etc.  Over time, things solidify, but your paragraph there just makes me think that some of us just naturally get this piece, while others of us naturally feel like we need to do the opposite, so we need to work harder to get it right. 

 

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