Reading Greens

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, natureboy said:

But per your posts, I'm clearly so ignorant I expect AimPoint is too far over my head to tackle at this stage. I probably have to become a much better golfer before I can properly understand these complex concepts.

Nope. We teach it to children. You're just learning a far-from-good way first.

8 minutes ago, natureboy said:

For me, the reference at the hole helps me extrapolate back to the initial ball position in steps. It's not important to me that you think it's correct. It's simply a visual aid for the kind of mental picture per the images below for the section around the hole; which relates to the prior section, which relates to the section before that, which relates to my initial ball position.

That's too much more work. You're going to find the fall lines at each chunk of a putt? I wouldn't want to playing in a group behind you.

8 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I said it was an aid to visualizing, not a 'method'. 

I'm not gonna play your words games. You're employing a certain method to attempt to read greens.

8 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I pay attention to the area around the hole because that is where the ball will usually (hopefully) be slowest (other than situations like going up a ridge) and therefore prone to break more for a given slope. I am also often doing clock drills and again the yardstick provides a reference point for the 'final destination' area around the hole.

How much can a 3-foot putt break? Not much. As I've said, you have to get the ball to that area before you can worry about how much (an inch? Three?) it's going to break in that area. You're ignoring the majority of the putt, unless you're "chunking" the putt up into enough little segments.

8 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Besides, don't all greens have about 2* of slope around the hole (& extending outward) on average anyway, so knowing the particular amounts of slope between the initial location of the ball and the hole don't really matter to the outcome? 

No.

8 minutes ago, natureboy said:

First time I've seen that. I'd expect the system did that as I universally just hard return between lines of a quoted post and only copy/paste items from off the site.

Nope. You're doing it wrong. Mine will be fine.

Edit: See? They're fine.

[saevel25]

14 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Amazingly for how terrible I am at putting (and golf), I also try to take that into account too.

But per your posts, I'm clearly so ignorant I expect AimPoint is too far over my head to tackle at this stage. I probably have to become a much better golfer before I can properly understand these complex concepts.  

Here is the beauty of Aimpoint. There is nothing overly technical about it. If you ask many of us who use Aimpoint, we use Aimpoint express. That is even less technical than Midpoint. Aimpoint is brilliant in the way it just simplistically works. 

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, natureboy said:

When I feel I have more basic foundational green reading experience I will probably do it and hopefully get a bit more out of it.

You don't need any foundation. It gives you the foundation of good green reading. I don't get why you feel you need say preexisting knowledge before going to Aimpoint. Aimpoint is meant for all golfers, from kids to PGA tour players. 

[natureboy]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

You don't need any foundation. It gives you the foundation of good green reading. I don't get why you feel you need say preexisting knowledge before going to Aimpoint. Aimpoint is meant for all golfers, from kids to PGA tour players. 

What was your GHIN before you took AimPoint?

[saevel25]

11 minutes ago, natureboy said:

What was your GHIN before you took AimPoint?

It doesn't matter what my GHIN was. GHIN is a horrible measuring stick to determine the competency of green reading. 

[billchao]

24 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

You don't need any foundation. It gives you the foundation of good green reading. I don't get why you feel you need say preexisting knowledge before going to Aimpoint. Aimpoint is meant for all golfers, from kids to PGA tour players. 

I second this. AimPoint Express was originally developed to teach children. Then they learned how effective it was so they started teaching it to everyone. Children don't have good foundational green reading experience, whatever that's supposed to mean anyway.

[Jeremie Boop]

@natureboyIf AImpoint helps you make 2 or 3 more putts per round is that not worth the little time it takes to learn it? It may not have a huge overall impact on your HC but being able to get your lag putts closer to the hole and/or just make more putts is worth it. I don't necessarily utilize all the aspects of aimpoint express that I learned, but what I do use has helped me drop from 2.5 putts per hole to 1.9 putts per hole. And that number is still getting lower. In all honesty, if I really started using the full method I would do even better, so I will probably try to get back into using it.

[Golfingdad]

23 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It doesn't matter what my GHIN was. GHIN is a horrible measuring stick to determine the competency of green reading. 

Well not necessarily.  If you added Aimpoint to your repertoire at a point where little else also changed, you could certainly use it as a barometer for how much it's helped you.

Of course, if you're like me, that probably didn't happen.  Im constantly working on your swing, and within a fairly small timespan I also added my edel putter and Eriks "don't accelerate" putting styles to my arsenal.  Not to mention a new driver, new wedges, a better pitching stroke, etc, etc.

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

Well not necessarily.  If you added Aimpoint to your repertoire at a point where little else also changed, you could certainly use it as a barometer for how much it's helped you.

I would probably say getting fitted for my Edel Putter helped me more. Distance control was always a bigger detriment to my putting over green reading. 

3 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Of course, if you're like me, that probably didn't happen.  Im constantly working on your swing, and within a fairly small timespan I also added my edel putter and Eriks "don't accelerate" putting styles to my arsenal.  Not to mention a new driver, new wedges, a better pitching stroke, etc, etc.

For me it's been my improvement in the long game that has helped lower my handicap. 

[natureboy]

55 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It doesn't matter what my GHIN was. GHIN is a horrible measuring stick to determine the competency of green reading. 

So your prior experience didn't matter in getting the most out of it. That's good to know. Generally putting skills do also track with HCP (assuming a fairly balanced game) for the average population at each HCP.

I think AimPoint has great value. I'm just not ready to spring for the big bucks yet. I think the visualizations they put out like the ones I posted are very helpful for golfers playing for a few years like me to get some of the basic concepts.

40 minutes ago, billchao said:

I second this. AimPoint Express was originally developed to teach children.

I have a chance! 

24 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I would probably say getting fitted for my Edel Putter helped me more.

Interesting.

24 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Distance control was always a bigger detriment to my putting over green reading. 

I probably suffer from both, but distance control may have been a bit more of an issue, because I hadn't even correctly identified that my putter had an off-center sweet spot when I started.

Edited May 31, 2016 by natureboy

[saevel25]

Just now, natureboy said:

So your prior experience didn't matter in getting the most out of it. That's good to know. Generally putting skills do also track with HCP (assuming a fairly balanced game) for the average population at each HCP.

Putting skill is based on three things. Reading greens, hitting your target line, and distance control. Missing one out of the three can bleed into the other two and cause you to be a poor putter. I would say green reading isn't going to hurt you as much as having poor distance control or very inconsistent start lines. 

My Edel putter influenced my putting more because I lost a ton of strokes three putting. That wasn't misreading greens for me. 

 

[dchoye]

Took Aimpoint express last season and have used it on and off.  It helps me because I use too much of my eyes and not  enough of my feet to read the green . I remember the time I was starting to putt well, I started noticing things like uneven humps on the floor of the hallway outside my office that I never notice before with my feet 

[BallStriker]

17 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Putting skill is based on three things. Reading greens, hitting your target line, and distance control. Missing one out of the three can bleed into the other two and cause you to be a poor putter. I would say green reading isn't going to hurt you as much as having poor distance control or very inconsistent start lines. 

My Edel putter influenced my putting more because I lost a ton of strokes three putting. That wasn't misreading greens for me. 

 

 

While noting that the topic here is "reading greens," this post is spot on -- imo, a typical golfer needs to ensure they spend plenty of time on line and speed, and not get too caught up and go overboard with green reading.  My "green reading" skills always seem to be best when I put more of my practice emphasis on hitting 3 foot to 10 foot straight putts.

Edited May 31, 2016 by BallStriker

[iacas]

50 minutes ago, BallStriker said:

While noting that the topic here is "reading greens," this post is spot on -- imo, a typical golfer needs to ensure they spend plenty of time on line and speed, and not get too caught up and go overboard with green reading.  My "green reading" skills always seem to be best when I put more of my practice emphasis on hitting 3 foot to 10 foot straight putts.

Yep. Read, bead, and speed:

I actually recommend players work on those three things separately. Because you can mess up two and occasionally make some putts (especially if they're read and bead)

[WUTiger]

Note: If you take AimPoint class, be sure to wear shorts, or flat-hem slacks that just touch the top of your shoes. Cuffed slacks or baggy workout pants can obstruct the measurement process AP teaches. (Trust me on this).

On 5/25/2016 at 4:33 PM, Golfingdad said:

... the biggest takeaway for me with Aimpoint was how much easier it is to read greens (and not be tricked by visual features) by reading the greens by feel.

I took the AimPoint Express 1 and 2 classes yesterday. @Aflighter, please don't take offense at my next statement, because I had similar worries before the class: The feel concept has a scientific basis to it, and involves a step-by-step process. It involves more than standing on a slanted green waiting for your feet to tingle with enlightenment. (The decision rules vary for different types of putts, such as uphill and downhill).

Assorted YouTube videos give you hints on what is involved in the system, but the actual class shows you the how.

And, AimPoint is not something you can learn deeply in a day. The classes show you the how and lets you practice different parts of the system. But, it would take some work to really become proficient, and to "get automatic" in using the process. Also, the instructor said it becomes easier to use on courses you play a lot.

And, I suspect that in the off-season, you would need to go out and practice AimPoint skills every couple of weeks to stay sharp.

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, WUTiger said:

Note: If you take AimPoint class, be sure to wear shorts, or flat-hem slacks that just touch the top of your shoes. Cuffed slacks or baggy workout pants can obstruct the measurement process AP teaches. (Trust me on this).

That's not really true. Some people (instructors) like the knee thing. Others don't. I use it occasionally, and I always wear pants. Wear what you want.

Glad you took the class John. Now get back to working on that swing.

[RH31]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 3:31 PM, BallStriker said:

 

While noting that the topic here is "reading greens," this post is spot on -- imo, a typical golfer needs to ensure they spend plenty of time on line and speed, and not get too caught up and go overboard with green reading.  My "green reading" skills always seem to be best when I put more of my practice emphasis on hitting 3 foot to 10 foot straight putts.

Back when I was really rolling it good, I used to practice flat putts that broke only slighty right to left.

Since I knew the break was a ball or at most 2 balls, depending on distance, I would work back and forth on that line to hone my stroke. That method worked so well for me that sometimes, I could get out to about 15 feet, putting around every foot, before I'd miss. That drill helped make me super confident on the greens.

[70sSanO]

On ‎6‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 2:03 PM, WUTiger said:

 Also, the instructor said it becomes easier to use on courses you play a lot.

A rather odd statement that seems to indicate more of a basis on familiarity than merely developing a skill.  Not to say that it won't help in the process, but if you putt on the same greens every week, given enough time and enough putts, that alone could be more beneficial.

I bought the DVD and I am planning on watching it and seeing what I can glean from it.  I think the system has merit.

John

Edited June 7, 2016 by 70sSanO