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Aflighter

Anna Nordqvist Grounds Club in Bunker, Loses U.S. Women's Open

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19 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

I do know that Azinger and Inkster are sharing my sentiments.Their was an injustice on notifying Lang before her shot and after Anna hit therefore allowing Lang to change shots.I dont really think it wouldve mattered but fair is fair but like has been said Fairness doesnt matter.Still nobody has explained why the bunker shot was reviewed  and zoomed in on in first place.Is most bunker shots reviewed like that or were they just bored and playing with the camera.

They zoom in on a great many shots to potentially show the impact on replay, etc.  They simply don't have the air time to show all of them, so you really can't make such a simplistic statement as that.

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1 minute ago, Fourputt said:

You cannot compare golf to any other sport for TV coverage...those games are played on a finite field

I always knew the golf courses in Colorado were nice, but I had no idea they extended to the boundaries of the universe! :-P

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22 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Yeah, but they don't get to call fouls, penalties, balls and strikes, etc. Big difference. 

Of course you are right, fans do not call all those things in other sports, but "instant replay" is now being used in the NFL, MLB, NBA, PRO GOLF, and I assume other sports. Fans don't really like it, but they don't like blown calls either. Especially if the blown call goes against their team. The whole thing with sports decisions is "to get it right". If the guy at home sees something wrong that others missed, relates it to the ROs on the field, it's up to the ROs to do what they want with the info. Remember that pro golf prides itself as being a game of honesty, and itegrity. When the players themselves can't/won't get it right on their own,  then the game needs help from where ever it can get it. 

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1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

I'm not talking about changing any policy, and I have ZERO issue with the general rule.  Nothing would need change on the books, but it's not too much to ask the guy going out to notify them that he assess the situation as he does it.

In this particular situation, it seems pretty clear to most that it would have been better if they both found out prior to (or after) their third shots on 18.  Not in between.

That's fair, but I worry then that the other player will feel like they got screwed, and the USGA would be defending the judgement call of an individual, whereas now they can just say "we notified everyone as soon as practicable".

There isn't an easy answer...

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I just read why they didnt wait to notify after lang hit.The USGA claims they didnt know where the players stood in their shots.Sounds like a cop out to me.They wanted to get penalty assessed and players notified as soon as they got there probably because of the DJ situation.

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13 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

That's fair, but I worry then that the other player will feel like they got screwed, and the USGA would be defending the judgement call of an individual, whereas now they can just say "we notified everyone as soon as practicable".

There isn't an easy answer...

I like the word "practicable" in this case.  Because it's not exactly the same as "possible" and I think that is more in line with what they actually did.  The definition of practicable is "able to be done successfully" whereas the definition of possible is just "able to be done."  They definitely notified them as soon as possible, but not, in my view, as soon as practicable, because that was anything but a success. :beer:

 

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41 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Quick, short answer to the Tiger issue is that there wasn't any issue at the time.  The rule is something like you drop "as close as you can" to the previous spot.  There is leeway there (more than there is with some people and shoulder heights :-P) and so nothing was an issue until his interview after the round when he himself said "I moved back a yard or two" or something to that effect.  The evidence there wasn't really the video so much as the admission.

I mean why wasn't the RO on site going through the procedure with Tiger...kind of: "you have these options before you for ball in a water hazard, straight line from the hole through last point of entry (which in this case is where it crossed after it hit the stick), the drop zone, or playing from the original spot. Before you go check out those other lies, I suggest you mark your original spot. That's your fresh divot? Okay."

Yes Tiger should know the rules himself, but in the midst of competition in a penalty situation, can't the RO's be an informative aid instead of passive observer?

44 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

The real intent of the rule in this instance is to prevent the player from improving his lie or area of intended swing.  It would be pretty hard to effectively test the surface when starting one's backswing (any more than you did by just walking into the bunker), but you could easily improve the swing path.  I've watched casual players do so, and with apparent intent - hard to believe that they normally drag the club on the ground for 6 inches before it starts to lift.  :whistle:

Why didn't you 'protect the field' and the integrity of the game by applying Rule 1-2 on the spot? :-P It's impossible to believe anyone has a normal backswing that drags on the ground. Besides if you do that near the ball where it actually matters, more likely than not, you'll cause the ball to move.

40 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

They zoom in on a great many shots to potentially show the impact on replay, etc.  They simply don't have the air time to show all of them, so you really can't make such a simplistic statement as that.

@Aflighter, I agree this is the more likely reason they had the footage than they are looking for rules infractions. But your point about certain players getting more of this kind of random scrutiny is valid.

Edited by natureboy

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Does anyone here really think that a 2 stroke penalty didn't take Nordqvist out of the contest regardless of when the notification was made?

2 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Why didn't you 'protect the field' and the integrity of the game by applying Rule 1-2 on the spot? :-P It's impossible to believe anyone has a normal backswing that drags on the ground. Besides if you do that near the ball where it actually matters, more likely than not, you'll cause the ball to move.

@Aflighter, I agree this is the more likely reason they had the footage than they are looking for rules infractions. But your point about certain players getting more of this kind of random scrutiny is valid.

Note that I said "casual player". :-P  If I saw anyone doing that in the tournament I'm playing in this weekend, you can be assured that he would be called.

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6 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Note that I said "casual player". :-P  If I saw anyone doing that in the tournament I'm playing in this weekend, you can be assured that he would be called.

Inform the handicap committee?

Edited by natureboy

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6 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Inform the handicap committee?

9 times out of 10, the player doing that doesn't carry a handicap anyway.  And since there's no handicap committee on a public course, the question is moot.  

But this is all OT.

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Rules are rules, but Nordqvist seems to have handled it as well as anyone could have. Best regards to her.

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Definitively a tough situation.   There is virtually nothing that can be done about a standard for notifying players except "as soon as possible" and it's rub of the green whether there is advantage gained.   I'd like to think "on completion of hole" but being on the last hole blows that out of the water.  I will say it's ok to notify players that there is an issue and give the option to stop play.   There is no reason to not be able to resolve within 15 minutes. 

However I think a cap needs to be done on how penalties are analyzed.   Going to blow-ups in HD and debating whether DJ caused it to move with replay is too far IMO.   Golf has survived a long time without such scrutiny.  I think the call was fair here, but I don't think brushing the sand affected the shot.  It probably happens from time to time and no one notices.   We don't need to go so far with a camera zoom to capture something because if it's so imperceptible then it's not consequential.  And because not all shots are zoomed in on. I'd rather cap at xyz resolution.  

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51 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Does anyone here really think that a 2 stroke penalty didn't take Nordqvist out of the contest regardless of when the notification was made?

The chances are fairly remote that it wasn't already over, yes.  However, Lang stated that she was going to go for a birdie with a lob wedge at the pin before she found out (and subsequently switched to a sand wedge to the back middle of the green).  We don't need to go back very far (this past April) to see somebody blow a major by dumping a short wedge shot into the water.  Crazier things have happened.

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1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

Quick, short answer to the Tiger issue is that there wasn't any issue at the time.  The rule is something like you drop "as close as you can" to the previous spot.  There is leeway there (more than there is with some people and shoulder heights :-P) and so nothing was an issue until his interview after the round when he himself said "I moved back a yard or two" or something to that effect.  The evidence there wasn't really the video so much as the admission.

I don't know how they'd do it, but considering the role that HDTV is playing in all of these infractions, I would not be opposed to them brainstorming ideas to improve the rules in that regard.  The NFL has had to alter and expand their rules in a lot of cases to account for the advanced scrutiny provided by HDTV (like, what, exactly is a catch), so maybe golf should consider it as well.

I think golf has to seriously consider what role instant replay, fans, etc play in pointing out rules infractions.  In my early learning of golf, I was told it was a gentleman's game where players called penalties on themselves and I liked that.  

Today we have a game where anyone watching HD broadcasts, including the commentators, can question a golfers action and have it result in a penalty.  If this is the direction the USGA and R&A want golf to head then the rules need to be reviewed and rules officials should be equipped with tablets so they can review questionable actions and make rulings immediately.  

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7 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I think golf has to seriously consider what role instant replay, fans, etc play in pointing out rules infractions.  In my early learning of golf, I was told it was a gentleman's game where players called penalties on themselves and I liked that.  

Today we have a game where anyone watching HD broadcasts, including the commentators, can question a golfers action and have it result in a penalty.  If this is the direction the USGA and R&A want golf to head then the rules need to be reviewed and rules officials should be equipped with tablets so they can review questionable actions and make rulings immediately.  

Very true.

As the NFL, MLB, NHL, and NBA have moved towards more replay, they have moved in incremental steps, and carefully codified the technology and under what specific circumstances it could be used.

Seems like the nature of golf (largely self-policed, played on an expansive playing field, with no "timeouts") makes this incredibly difficult to do. So, the USGA has, for the most part (things like Decision 18/4 aside), taken the approach that HD video is just another piece of "evidence", and doesn't change the rules but only makes more evidence available.

Now they are in a spot where precedent exists, so any effort to "roll back" the use of replay would get pushback from those who cite cases like this (where there was a clear rules violation) or cases where replay helped the player (Rory). 

It's a tough situation, and I'm not sure what the answer is. My guess/vote/instinct is that the current situation is probably as good as it gets, and they just need to focus on speed and procedure: being able to review footage faster, make rulings faster, and have specific procedures in place for notification (heck, maybe the caddies get a text and can decide whether to tell their players!)

Footnote: FWIW, I think the "fans calling in" thing is really weird and probably should stop...somehow.

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They need to do it like tennis.  Big screen with fans clapping in unison in anticipation of the result.  Participants watching for the outcome.

John

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Yes the two shot penalty was by the book.  I agree that players shouldn't push the limits when addressing the ball or practicing a stroke.  I agree that the USGA screwed the pooch again.  For these people to be by the book holier than thou, they just can't manage to administer the rules in an equitable manner.  In a national open playoff, with only two players on the course, play should be stopped as soon as the review began.  I will add that play should be stopped when both players are in the same situation on the course.  One only has to watch that video once to call out on the course and stop play until a final ruling is made.

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