Kaepernick Sits for National Anthem

[JGus]

I'll throw in my $0.02 here, not to argue with anyone's opinion or how they see things, but to just give my honest opinion from my perspective and from other fellow service members who I have spoken with about this topic and other similar topics.

I think these topics are tougher to discuss for those that have served, and honestly I really don't think the people I know who haven't served, when they ask me what I think as a militery person (regardless of the topic), if they really understand the difficulty in formulating an opinion.  I say this because if you haven't served, it is really hard to explain all of the things that find there way into the equation.  And please, nobody read into that, it's not a knock against those that have not served, just trying to highlight the fact that there are certain things that just don't translate from one side to the other.  Using the old saying, "Been there, done that", if you haven't been there and you haven't done that, it's really hard for those that have to explain it to you.  And this is true for a million other things as well, if you were in a plane crash and I haven't been, I will never fully understand the event no matter how many times you explain it to me.  Hopefully everyone will understand the point here.

Topics like these are a doubled edge sword, at least for me anyways.  On one hand the rights and freedom I fought for and defended, but on the other, disrespect to those defending the very right to do it (again, not arguing anyones opinion here, and don't plan to after this post, just stating what the middle looks like).  This is one of many topics that fall into this doubled edge sword category, which I try to avoid as I don't think I could ever clearly express why I have the thoughts that I have.

I can't argue the thought that the National Anthem being played at events or the Pledge of Allegence being spoken in school doesn't fall into the 'ritual' category, and will be the first to admit that if either are played when I am home, I do not stand.  But I think the difference is this, when I am home or somewhere else outside of large events and the National Anthem is played, I may not stand, but I can gurantee my thoughts are focused on the service members around the world, past, present, and future.  This may stem from my time in the Army or my continued work in the military community, and by no means am I insinuating this should be the thoughts in everyones mind, just expressing what my thoughts are.  Now when it comes to large events, like sporting events, where there is a large gathering of people, I never collected statistical data here, just from what I can remember from being a spectator at many events, before the National Anthem is played, there is usually some mention of the military, maybe honoring someone present at the event, one singing, a quick mention of a specific unit, or the announcement of the color guard (military or other profession), whatever it is, in most cases the military is somehow associated with the singing of the National Anthem.  So I absolutey stand, not for the 'ritual' of it, not because the flag is waving, but to show respect to those that have or are currently serving around the world.  Most people I have talked to, whether they have served or not, have had similar thoughts on the military being tied in with the National Anthem.  Again, not saying anyone reading this should feel that way, i'm talking about those that I know.

At the end of the day, people have the right to do these things, and everyone else will form their own opinions.  I have mixed emotions on these topics as stated above, and could probably argue either side, but if I was in uniform inside one of those stadiums, and someone approached me, regardless of race or the reason why, and I seen them kneeling during the National Anthem, I would use my right to just walk away.

Gus

[Ernest Jones]

40 minutes ago, JGus said:

I'll throw in my $0.02 here, not to argue with anyone's opinion or how they see things, but to just give my honest opinion from my perspective and from other fellow service members who I have spoken with about this topic and other similar topics.

 

I think these topics are tougher to discuss for those that have served, and honestly I really don't think the people I know who haven't served, when they ask me what I think as a militery person (regardless of the topic), if they really understand the difficulty in formulating an opinion.  I say this because if you haven't served, it is really hard to explain all of the things that find there way into the equation.  And please, nobody read into that, it's not a knock against those that have not served, just trying to highlight the fact that there are certain things that just don't translate from one side to the other.  Using the old saying, "Been there, done that", if you haven't been there and you haven't done that, it's really hard for those that have to explain it to you.  And this is true for a million other things as well, if you were in a plane crash and I haven't been, I will never fully understand the event no matter how many times you explain it to me.  Hopefully everyone will understand the point here.

 

Topics like these are a doubled edge sword, at least for me anyways.  On one hand the rights and freedom I fought for and defended, but on the other, disrespect to those defending the very right to do it (again, not arguing anyones opinion here, and don't plan to after this post, just stating what the middle looks like).  This is one of many topics that fall into this doubled edge sword category, which I try to avoid as I don't think I could ever clearly express why I have the thoughts that I have.

 

I can't argue the thought that the National Anthem being played at events or the Pledge of Allegence being spoken in school doesn't fall into the 'ritual' category, and will be the first to admit that if either are played when I am home, I do not stand.  But I think the difference is this, when I am home or somewhere else outside of large events and the National Anthem is played, I may not stand, but I can gurantee my thoughts are focused on the service members around the world, past, present, and future.  This may stem from my time in the Army or my continued work in the military community, and by no means am I insinuating this should be the thoughts in everyones mind, just expressing what my thoughts are.  Now when it comes to large events, like sporting events, where there is a large gathering of people, I never collected statistical data here, just from what I can remember from being a spectator at many events, before the National Anthem is played, there is usually some mention of the military, maybe honoring someone present at the event, one singing, a quick mention of a specific unit, or the announcement of the color guard (military or other profession), whatever it is, in most cases the military is somehow associated with the singing of the National Anthem.  So I absolutey stand, not for the 'ritual' of it, not because the flag is waving, but to show respect to those that have or are currently serving around the world.  Most people I have talked to, whether they have served or not, have had similar thoughts on the military being tied in with the National Anthem.  Again, not saying anyone reading this should feel that way, i'm talking about those that I know.

 

At the end of the day, people have the right to do these things, and everyone else will form their own opinions.  I have mixed emotions on these topics as stated above, and could probably argue either side, but if I was in uniform inside one of those stadiums, and someone approached me, regardless of race or the reason why, and I seen them kneeling during the National Anthem, I would use my right to just walk away.

 

Gus

 

Good post.

[newtogolf]

1 hour ago, JGus said:

I'll throw in my $0.02 here, not to argue with anyone's opinion or how they see things, but to just give my honest opinion from my perspective and from other fellow service members who I have spoken with about this topic and other similar topics.

 

I think these topics are tougher to discuss for those that have served, and honestly I really don't think the people I know who haven't served, when they ask me what I think as a militery person (regardless of the topic), if they really understand the difficulty in formulating an opinion.  I say this because if you haven't served, it is really hard to explain all of the things that find there way into the equation.  And please, nobody read into that, it's not a knock against those that have not served, just trying to highlight the fact that there are certain things that just don't translate from one side to the other.  Using the old saying, "Been there, done that", if you haven't been there and you haven't done that, it's really hard for those that have to explain it to you.  And this is true for a million other things as well, if you were in a plane crash and I haven't been, I will never fully understand the event no matter how many times you explain it to me.  Hopefully everyone will understand the point here.

 

Topics like these are a doubled edge sword, at least for me anyways.  On one hand the rights and freedom I fought for and defended, but on the other, disrespect to those defending the very right to do it (again, not arguing anyones opinion here, and don't plan to after this post, just stating what the middle looks like).  This is one of many topics that fall into this doubled edge sword category, which I try to avoid as I don't think I could ever clearly express why I have the thoughts that I have.

 

I can't argue the thought that the National Anthem being played at events or the Pledge of Allegence being spoken in school doesn't fall into the 'ritual' category, and will be the first to admit that if either are played when I am home, I do not stand.  But I think the difference is this, when I am home or somewhere else outside of large events and the National Anthem is played, I may not stand, but I can gurantee my thoughts are focused on the service members around the world, past, present, and future.  This may stem from my time in the Army or my continued work in the military community, and by no means am I insinuating this should be the thoughts in everyones mind, just expressing what my thoughts are.  Now when it comes to large events, like sporting events, where there is a large gathering of people, I never collected statistical data here, just from what I can remember from being a spectator at many events, before the National Anthem is played, there is usually some mention of the military, maybe honoring someone present at the event, one singing, a quick mention of a specific unit, or the announcement of the color guard (military or other profession), whatever it is, in most cases the military is somehow associated with the singing of the National Anthem.  So I absolutey stand, not for the 'ritual' of it, not because the flag is waving, but to show respect to those that have or are currently serving around the world.  Most people I have talked to, whether they have served or not, have had similar thoughts on the military being tied in with the National Anthem.  Again, not saying anyone reading this should feel that way, i'm talking about those that I know.

 

At the end of the day, people have the right to do these things, and everyone else will form their own opinions.  I have mixed emotions on these topics as stated above, and could probably argue either side, but if I was in uniform inside one of those stadiums, and someone approached me, regardless of race or the reason why, and I seen them kneeling during the National Anthem, I would use my right to just walk away.

 

Gus

Great post and thank you for your service to our country and protecting our rights.  

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, JGus said:

I'll throw in my $0.02 here, not to argue with anyone's opinion or how they see things, but to just give my honest opinion from my perspective and from other fellow service members who I have spoken with about this topic and other similar topics.

 

I think these topics are tougher to discuss for those that have served, and honestly I really don't think the people I know who haven't served, when they ask me what I think as a militery person (regardless of the topic), if they really understand the difficulty in formulating an opinion.  I say this because if you haven't served, it is really hard to explain all of the things that find there way into the equation.  And please, nobody read into that, it's not a knock against those that have not served, just trying to highlight the fact that there are certain things that just don't translate from one side to the other.  Using the old saying, "Been there, done that", if you haven't been there and you haven't done that, it's really hard for those that have to explain it to you.  And this is true for a million other things as well, if you were in a plane crash and I haven't been, I will never fully understand the event no matter how many times you explain it to me.  Hopefully everyone will understand the point here.

 

Topics like these are a doubled edge sword, at least for me anyways.  On one hand the rights and freedom I fought for and defended, but on the other, disrespect to those defending the very right to do it (again, not arguing anyones opinion here, and don't plan to after this post, just stating what the middle looks like).  This is one of many topics that fall into this doubled edge sword category, which I try to avoid as I don't think I could ever clearly express why I have the thoughts that I have.

 

I can't argue the thought that the National Anthem being played at events or the Pledge of Allegence being spoken in school doesn't fall into the 'ritual' category, and will be the first to admit that if either are played when I am home, I do not stand.  But I think the difference is this, when I am home or somewhere else outside of large events and the National Anthem is played, I may not stand, but I can gurantee my thoughts are focused on the service members around the world, past, present, and future.  This may stem from my time in the Army or my continued work in the military community, and by no means am I insinuating this should be the thoughts in everyones mind, just expressing what my thoughts are.  Now when it comes to large events, like sporting events, where there is a large gathering of people, I never collected statistical data here, just from what I can remember from being a spectator at many events, before the National Anthem is played, there is usually some mention of the military, maybe honoring someone present at the event, one singing, a quick mention of a specific unit, or the announcement of the color guard (military or other profession), whatever it is, in most cases the military is somehow associated with the singing of the National Anthem.  So I absolutey stand, not for the 'ritual' of it, not because the flag is waving, but to show respect to those that have or are currently serving around the world.  Most people I have talked to, whether they have served or not, have had similar thoughts on the military being tied in with the National Anthem.  Again, not saying anyone reading this should feel that way, i'm talking about those that I know.

 

At the end of the day, people have the right to do these things, and everyone else will form their own opinions.  I have mixed emotions on these topics as stated above, and could probably argue either side, but if I was in uniform inside one of those stadiums, and someone approached me, regardless of race or the reason why, and I seen them kneeling during the National Anthem, I would use my right to just walk away.

 

Gus

This may be the best post in the 16 pages of this thread.  Although not a lifer, I spent 6 years in the Army too, and that's why I'm disturbed by what I view as disrespect for the nation I served.  CK stated that he couldn't perform an act that shows respect for the US, yet then he states out of the other side of his mouth that he loves his country.  I'm not really sure how he thinks that he can have it both ways.  Protest the racially motivated acts or injustices, not the ideals of the country whose laws are designed to prevent or punish such acts.

I understand and support the right to protest under the first amendment, but that doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to be disturbed by the form that the protest takes.  Just as I was both disturbed and angered by the anti-Vietnam war protests (even though I was sympathetic with the cause even while I was serving) because of the deplorable way many of the protesters chose to demonstrate their opposition by burning the flag, and even worse, by spitting and throwing garbage on returning soldiers, most of whom were draftees and had no real choice in whether or not they served, or where they were stationed while serving.  While the principle that they were protesting was laudable, the form they used to make their statement was beneath contempt.

CK's form of protest is certainly not in that category, but it still pushes some negative buttons for me.

[Spanky]

19 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Great post and thank you for your service to our country and protecting our rights.  

 

18 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

This may be the best post in the 16 pages of this thread.  Although not a lifer, I spent 6 years in the Army too, and that's why I'm disturbed by what I view as disrespect for the nation I served.  CK stated that he couldn't perform an act that shows respect for the US, yet then he states out of the other side of his mouth that he loves his country.  I'm not really sure how he thinks that he can have it both ways.  Protest the racially motivated acts or injustices, not the ideals of the country whose laws are designed to prevent or punish such acts.

I understand and support the right to protest under the first amendment, but that doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to be disturbed by the form that the protest takes.  Just as I was both disturbed and angered by the anti-Vietnam war protests (even though I was sympathetic with the cause even while I was serving) because of the deplorable way many of the protesters chose to demonstrate their opposition by burning the flag, and even worse, by spitting and throwing garbage on returning soldiers, most of whom were draftees and had no real choice in whether or not they served, or where they were stationed while serving.  While the principle that they were protesting was laudable, the form they used to make their statement was beneath contempt.

CK's form of protest is certainly not in that category, but it still pushes some negative buttons for me.

 

18 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

This may be the best post in the 16 pages of this thread.  Although not a lifer, I spent 6 years in the Army too, and that's why I'm disturbed by what I view as disrespect for the nation I served.  CK stated that he couldn't perform an act that shows respect for the US, yet then he states out of the other side of his mouth that he loves his country.  I'm not really sure how he thinks that he can have it both ways.  Protest the racially motivated acts or injustices, not the ideals of the country whose laws are designed to prevent or punish such acts.

I understand and support the right to protest under the first amendment, but that doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to be disturbed by the form that the protest takes.  Just as I was both disturbed and angered by the anti-Vietnam war protests (even though I was sympathetic with the cause even while I was serving) because of the deplorable way many of the protesters chose to demonstrate their opposition by burning the flag, and even worse, by spitting and throwing garbage on returning soldiers, most of whom were draftees and had no real choice in whether or not they served, or where they were stationed while serving.  While the principle that they were protesting was laudable, the form they used to make their statement was beneath contempt.

CK's form of protest is certainly not in that category, but it still pushes some negative buttons for me.

 

 

 

I get what your saying, I served in the Marine Corps. The argument is still apples and oranges as the problem had nothing to do with how we served our country. You can love your country and the service men and women whom made it what it is today and disapprove of the state of the union. He merely was trying to help those who do not have the the audience to to bring about change and maybe even bring people closer as human beings. Racism has no place in my America. And I still love my country.

[14ledo81]

2 hours ago, JGus said:

I'll throw in my $0.02 here, not to argue with anyone's opinion or how they see things, but to just give my honest opinion from my perspective and from other fellow service members who I have spoken with about this topic and other similar topics.

 

I think these topics are tougher to discuss for those that have served, and honestly I really don't think the people I know who haven't served, when they ask me what I think as a militery person (regardless of the topic), if they really understand the difficulty in formulating an opinion.  I say this because if you haven't served, it is really hard to explain all of the things that find there way into the equation.  And please, nobody read into that, it's not a knock against those that have not served, just trying to highlight the fact that there are certain things that just don't translate from one side to the other.  Using the old saying, "Been there, done that", if you haven't been there and you haven't done that, it's really hard for those that have to explain it to you.  And this is true for a million other things as well, if you were in a plane crash and I haven't been, I will never fully understand the event no matter how many times you explain it to me.  Hopefully everyone will understand the point here.

 

Topics like these are a doubled edge sword, at least for me anyways.  On one hand the rights and freedom I fought for and defended, but on the other, disrespect to those defending the very right to do it (again, not arguing anyones opinion here, and don't plan to after this post, just stating what the middle looks like).  This is one of many topics that fall into this doubled edge sword category, which I try to avoid as I don't think I could ever clearly express why I have the thoughts that I have.

 

I can't argue the thought that the National Anthem being played at events or the Pledge of Allegence being spoken in school doesn't fall into the 'ritual' category, and will be the first to admit that if either are played when I am home, I do not stand.  But I think the difference is this, when I am home or somewhere else outside of large events and the National Anthem is played, I may not stand, but I can gurantee my thoughts are focused on the service members around the world, past, present, and future.  This may stem from my time in the Army or my continued work in the military community, and by no means am I insinuating this should be the thoughts in everyones mind, just expressing what my thoughts are.  Now when it comes to large events, like sporting events, where there is a large gathering of people, I never collected statistical data here, just from what I can remember from being a spectator at many events, before the National Anthem is played, there is usually some mention of the military, maybe honoring someone present at the event, one singing, a quick mention of a specific unit, or the announcement of the color guard (military or other profession), whatever it is, in most cases the military is somehow associated with the singing of the National Anthem.  So I absolutey stand, not for the 'ritual' of it, not because the flag is waving, but to show respect to those that have or are currently serving around the world.  Most people I have talked to, whether they have served or not, have had similar thoughts on the military being tied in with the National Anthem.  Again, not saying anyone reading this should feel that way, i'm talking about those that I know.

 

At the end of the day, people have the right to do these things, and everyone else will form their own opinions.  I have mixed emotions on these topics as stated above, and could probably argue either side, but if I was in uniform inside one of those stadiums, and someone approached me, regardless of race or the reason why, and I seen them kneeling during the National Anthem, I would use my right to just walk away.

 

Gus

Excellent post. Thumbs up.

[14ledo81]

Darkness cannot drive out darkness: 
only light can do that. 
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

A quote that I though pertinent to the situation.  I firmly believe this line by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is true.

Unfortunately for Kaepernick, many feel his stance is based upon negativity (towards the nation, police officers, etc..).  

[Ernest Jones]

4 hours ago, 14ledo81 said:

Darkness cannot drive out darkness: 
only light can do that. 
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

A quote that I though pertinent to the situation.  I firmly believe this line by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is true.

Unfortunately for Kaepernick, many feel his stance is based upon negativity (towards the nation, police officers, etc..).  

Wow. Pretty damn sure that's not how MLK would have viewed this situation. 

The "darkness" is all the scorn, derision, anger and hatred being leveled at Kaepernick for trying to bring an issue of social justice to light. Just listen to the glee in the voices of those who celebrate whatever repercussions that Kaepernick may face for his stance and actions.

How 'bout this for a quote - Instead of teaching our kids to stand up for flags and anthems, teach them to stand up for social justice and humanity. 

[Spanky]

1 minute ago, Ernest Jones said:

Wow. Pretty damn sure that's not how MLK would have viewed this situation. 

The "darkness" is all the scorn, derision, anger and hatred being leveled at Kaepernick for trying to bring an issue of social justice to light. Just listen to the glee in the voices of those who celebrate whatever repercussions that Kaepernick may face for his stance and actions.

How 'bout this for a quote - Instead of teaching our kids to stand up for flags and anthems, teach them to stand up for social justice and humanity. 

Sadly enough, someone will argue even that rational.

[70sSanO]

My problem with Kaepernick, and other highly compensated athletes, is their role to bring about change is to do it by inspiring some other guy to actually do the dirty work.  And for him (them) the best way is to do it through the media in the safety of multi-million dollar stadiums and tell the world in bold statements that you don’t care if they take away football or the endorsements because you are making a stand for the oppressed… and you have a net worth of $22 million to fall back on.

It is easy to protest against inanimate objects and symbols, no matter how powerful, and conjure up and emotional feelings of how things should be.  That is all this is, conjuring up the emotions in people.  But please don't ask them to go to troubled cities and attend city council meetings, or police advocacy meetings, or any other community boards and help negotiate a change to policies.  Places where they might actually be able to use their notoriety.  And they don't want to have to be like those before them who actually risked their livelihood and lives that enabled their affluent lifestyle.

I'm not saying we don't have issues, but really, protesting against the flag and anthem as if that is going to do anything?

John

Edited September 15, 2016 by 70sSanO

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Wow. Pretty damn sure that's not how MLK would have viewed this situation. 

The "darkness" is all the scorn, derision, anger and hatred being leveled at Kaepernick for trying to bring an issue of social justice to light. Just listen to the glee in the voices of those who celebrate whatever repercussions that Kaepernick may face for his stance and actions.

 

Again, it isn't the message that he says he is trying to communicate, but the vehicle which he chose to use that has the negative connotation for a great many people.  I know Canadians who would be equally irate at someone showing disrespect for the Canadian anthem or flag.  

Quote

How 'bout this for a quote - Instead of teaching our kids to stand up for flags and anthems, teach them to stand up for social justice and humanity. 

I was brought up that way back in the 1950's, as were most of my friends.  My grandmother chose to teach school in a black neighborhood in St. Paul.  She was an outstanding elementary school teacher and she felt that those kids needed more help getting started than those in most of the predominantly white city.

[Elmer]

4 minutes ago, 70sSanO said:

My problem with Kaepernick, and other highly compensated athletes, is their role to bring about change is to do it by inspiring some other guy to actually do the dirty work.  And for him (them) the best way is to do it through the media in the safety of multi-million dollar stadiums and tell the world in bold statements that you don’t care if they take away football or the endorsements because you are making a stand for the oppressed… and you have a net worth of $22 million to fall back on.

It is easy to protest against inanimate objects and symbols, no matter how powerful, and conjure up and emotional feelings of how things should be.  That is all this is, conjuring up the emotions in people.  But please don't ask them to go to troubled cities and attend city council meetings, or police advocacy meetings, or any other community boards and help negotiate a change to policies.  Places where they might actually be able to use their notoriety.  And they don't want to have to be like those before them who actually risked their livelihood and lives that enabled their affluent lifestyle.

I'm not saying we don't have issues, but really, protesting against the flag and anthem as if that is going to do anything?

John

KC donated $1 million dollars to charities that address the issue he is "protesting".
He also indicated he would donate his portion of his jersey sales.
The 49's also donated  $1 million  dollars from their foundation to charity causes that quarterback KC would support.

Aside from that I think KC has a job and can not show up at every city council meeting in every trouble urban spot!

What more would you like him to do?

[Golfingdad]

6 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Again, it isn't the message that he says he is trying to communicate, but the vehicle which he chose to use that has the negative connotation for a great many people.  I know Canadians who would be equally irate at someone showing disrespect for the Canadian anthem or flag. 

I think many would disagree with this assessment.  Not that Canadians wouldn't also be offended, but at the assumption that he is showing disrespect.  Quietly taking a knee (or sitting, as he was previously) is not the same as intentionally butchering the Anthem, like Roseanne Barr did awhile back, or booing the other countries anthems like sometimes happens in hockey.  Those actions are disrespectful to everybody around you, nobody would disagree, but a quiet protest isn't like that.

[70sSanO]

12 minutes ago, Elmer said:

KC donated $1 million dollars to charities that address the issue he is "protesting".
He also indicated he would donate his portion of his jersey sales.
The 49's also donated  $1 million  dollars from their foundation to charity causes that quarterback KC would support.

Aside from that I think KC has a job and can not show up at every city council meeting in every trouble urban spot!

What more would you like him to do?

Well he wasn't doing a heck of a lot last January or February (HaHaHa) March?, April?, etc.

Yep.  But that's how it is done.  Don't actually use your notoriety in these communities, and the publicity that would follow, just throw some money and let someone else actually do your passion to stand against oppression.

Kind of like paying a faster player to golf for you to protest slow play.  Colin is either in or out on this one.

John

[mdl]

20 hours ago, Spanky said:

I get what your saying, I served in the Marine Corps. The argument is still apples and oranges as the problem had nothing to do with how we served our country. You can love your country and the service men and women whom made it what it is today and disapprove of the state of the union. He merely was trying to help those who do not have the the audience to to bring about change and maybe even bring people closer as human beings. Racism has no place in my America. And I still love my country.

Right?  It's crazy that this isn't so baldly obvious it would be incredibly dumb to even bother explaining it.  To put it another way, from the supreme court case that established the right to refuse salutes and oaths (Jehovah's witnesses in that case):

************

To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous, instead of a compulsory routine, is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order.

[Fourputt]

54 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I think many would disagree with this assessment.  Not that Canadians wouldn't also be offended, but at the assumption that he is showing disrespect.  Quietly taking a knee (or sitting, as he was previously) is not the same as intentionally butchering the Anthem, like Roseanne Barr did awhile back, or booing the other countries anthems like sometimes happens in hockey.  Those actions are disrespectful to everybody around you, nobody would disagree, but a quiet protest isn't like that.

Except that CK stated that he did it because he could not respect a country that supported injustice.  What is that if not disrespect?  In his case it isn't just the act, but the intent behind it that's misguided.

I contend that the country does no such thing.  There may be individuals and even some screwed up, misguided organizations which espouse beliefs which no intelligent, reasoning person could support.  But that is not the stand, nor is it the direction that this nation takes or supports.  That is where his protest heads the wrong direction.  He seems to be trying to take a few isolated and highly publicized incidents and turn them into a blanket condemnation of all law enforcement organizations.  If that isn't what he intends, then maybe he needs to make a clearer statement than what he has done so far.  To me he just seems confused and as poorly informed as I am - maybe more so.

(And no, I haven't searched the internet for every comment he's made.  I'm working on the impression he made with me initially and on what has been reported in the mainstream media, plus what little I've read here.) 

[Ernest Jones]

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

I was brought up that way back in the 1950's, as were most of my friends.  My grandmother chose to teach school in a black neighborhood in St. Paul.  She was an outstanding elementary school teacher and she felt that those kids needed more help getting started than those in most of the predominantly white city.

I'm not sure I get your point here. 

[Abu3baid]

1 hour ago, 70sSanO said:

Well he wasn't doing a heck of a lot last January or February (HaHaHa) March?, April?, etc.

Yep.  But that's how it is done.  Don't actually use your notoriety in these communities, and the publicity that would follow, just throw some money and let someone else actually do your passion to stand against oppression.

Kind of like paying a faster player to golf for you to protest slow play.  Colin is either in or out on this one.

John

are you seriously upset that he threw money at it?  Instead of what?  Like digging with a shovel?  

So, you want him to print out fliers for example and go staple them to poles instead of donating money that can be used to print millions of brochures or to hold community conferences, or to fly in experts ect..  Come on now.. It's not even close, of course donating money is going to push the cause a lot further than him going out and doing the work with his hands.

Finally, I would never hold it against him when he decided to take that stance.. Does it really matter that he wasn't doing anything back 5 years ago?  Or if he wasn't doing anything up until yesterday?  Arguments like this one have me puzzled.  

Sorry