Tricked Up Pin Positions - How Many is Too Many?

[Fairway_CY]

I played a round on Saturday morning at a club I had played at once previously.  My buddy had just become a member there and I had asked him to play that day, so he set it up at his club.  Anyway... it was a chilly day (for the Charlotte area) and the winds were a constant 15+ MPH throughout.  They had been calling for that weather for a few days at least, so... when I got to the course, I knew what to expect.  

What I DIDN'T expect were the pin positions.  A large majority (at least 14 of 18 holes) of the pins were placed in ridiculous spots.  

There are a few shortish par 3 holes on this course.  The first one, the pin was cut not even 3 paces on at the front of the green.  There's a drop off directly in front of the green, and it's a short hole.  On Saturday, it was playing to 109 yards.  The wind was directly at our backs, which meant that spin was going to be knocked off the ball.  You couldn't land short of the green and have it hop on because of the slope in front.  3 out of the 4 of us in the group ended up short.  Those 3 made bogey, bogey and double.  The 4th hit the green but left himself a 20+ foot putt.  He hit a good putt that looked like it was going to stop 3 feet past the hole, but instead... it briefly paused before running off the green.  He made a double as well.

That was just an example.  Most downwind holes were cut at the front of the greens where you couldn't run the ball up because of slopes or hazards.  Holes playing into the wind were cut on top of upside-down bowls.  You couldn't get within 15 feet of most holes and more than a few times, guys in our group had putts or chips roll off the greens.  

I counted exactly ONE hole that the pin was cut in the middle of the green and that was on a tough, three-shot par 5 hole.  It made for a brutal, long day with some tough scoring.  While it was certainly a challenge, I can't necessarily say that an of us had fun struggling like that.

Has anybody else played a round at a course set up like that?  How many holes set up with ridiculous pin positions is too many on a single course?  

CY

[Groucho Valentine]

Yes. I played in a club championship at a course years ago where alot of the greens are small, bowl shaped, or are on plateaus. Every single pin was dropped on or near a false front or drop off. The hole itself was pitched on a couple of greens... You wanted to choke a bitch. I played well over two days ands still shot 162.  The winner (a very fine player in his own right) shot 159.

The course was short and flat, so i think the super and pro there thought tricking out the greens was the only way defend it from the championship flight. But in the process they made it miserable for the other 90% of people that played. There were people 5 and 6 putting greens. I can understand making it a little tough, but that was mini golf territory. 

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, Fairway_CY said:

There are a few shortish par 3 holes on this course.  The first one, the pin was cut not even 3 paces on at the front of the green.  There's a drop off directly in front of the green, and it's a short hole.  On Saturday, it was playing to 109 yards.  The wind was directly at our backs, which meant that spin was going to be knocked off the ball.  You couldn't land short of the green and have it hop on because of the slope in front.  3 out of the 4 of us in the group ended up short.  Those 3 made bogey, bogey and double.  The 4th hit the green but left himself a 20+ foot putt.  He hit a good putt that looked like it was going to stop 3 feet past the hole, but instead... it briefly paused before running off the green.  He made a double as well.

So… why not just hit it 10 feet behind the flag? Or 15?

I realize it's just one example, but… unless the holes were all cut on very steep slopes or two feet from a tier (not three yards), I don't know… just hit the green 20 feet from the cup if you're that good to be aiming at the flag from 109 yards.

That said, maybe you played on a day when they had a "Hell Day" type tournament, or a weekly "tough pins" scramble (the course at which I took my PAT was set up for that the day I played in the PAT)… or something like that.

[shanksalot]

I don't have a problem with tough pin positions for a tournament. For daily play I think it only adds time to the round while slowing down play. That is the last thing you want on a golf course to slow down play with tricked up pin positions. Bad move on the courses part.

[graham57]

At our club championship this year, our pro deliberately placed the pin in positions I had never seen on the course before (either just behind or in front of bunkers, on the most steeply sloping part of the green, etc.). Fair enough - you have to deal with whatever pin positions are chosen, but more than half the participants complained that there was no way they could play anything approaching their normal game, and the scores were pretty bad.

I would say that 75% of the pin positions were more difficult than normal - a few tough ones would be ok, but - as Groucho Valentine said above - it spoiled the day for a lot of the people hoping to at least put in a decent round at the most important competition of the year.

[Fairway_CY]

46 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

The course was short and flat, so i think the super and pro there thought tricking out the greens was the only way defend it from the championship flight. But in the process they made it miserable for the other 90% of people that played. There were people 5 and 6 putting greens. I can understand making it a little tough, but that was mini golf territory. 

I think that's part of what bothered me so much is that it's not the most difficult course and I've been playing pretty well (for my skill level) recently.  With the wind and the greens having the holes cut where they were, it was getting out of control.  I only had 27 putts, but that's because I was chipping or putting from off the green on the majority of the holes.

46 minutes ago, iacas said:

So… why not just hit it 10 feet behind the flag? Or 15?

I realize it's just one example, but… unless the holes were all cut on very steep slopes or two feet from a tier (not three yards), I don't know… just hit the green 20 feet from the cup if you're that good to be aiming at the flag from 109 yards.

That said, maybe you played on a day when they had a "Hell Day" type tournament, or a weekly "tough pins" scramble (the course at which I took my PAT was set up for that the day I played in the PAT)… or something like that.

I wish I was good enough to do that.  The pin on the 109 yard hole was an inviting pin.  The trouble was to the left side of the green.  I actually hit what I thought was a really good shot, but the wind actually knocked the ball down from behind.  I hit a 115 yard club on that hole, so I was playing for behind the hole.  Still... the one guy that did hit the green was about 20 feet behind the hole and his putt looked like it was going to be perfect.  It was about 3 feet beyond the hole and then it caught the slope and took off down the hill and off the green into the valley where the other 3 of us started from.

We asked afterwards if that was maybe the case but the guy we spoke to said he didn't know anything about it.  We assumed maybe the guy who cut the holes caught his wife with another man or something the night before.

39 minutes ago, shanksalot said:

I don't have a problem with tough pin positions for a tournament. For daily play I think it only adds time to the round while slowing down play. That is the last thing you want on a golf course to slow down play with tricked up pin positions. Bad move on the courses part.

It was a busy Saturday.  We still finished in 4 hours, but when we ran into other groups, they all commented on the holes too. 

Luckily, only 1 hole was noticeably cut on a slope.  That was the 16th hole and the combination of where the pin was located and that the hole was cut on a slope meant that a par was an amazing score there.  Only 1 of us managed to make par on that hole.  I believe I made double (topped my drive, lay up to about 85 yards short, wedge was just right of the hole and rolled down the hill, chipped up but the ball had no check so it rolled off the back side into the rough by a bunker, flopped the ball with a full swing from 25 feet to within 2 feet and tapped in).  

Meh... I guess it's just sour grapes.  I definitely didn't play well but... I was hoping to blame it on whoever set up the course that day.  



CY

[CarlSpackler]

I don't mind tough pin positions in a tournament. Anything that will frustrate my competition is good for me. Windy day... bring it on! Sucker pins... no eh problemo. Super tall rough... well, maybe I have my limits. 

[David in FL]

Sometimes the guy cutting the pins is just in a foul mood...

...or as @iacas said, there could be another reason altogether.  It may even be a matter of preparing the more traditional pin positions for an upcoming tournament or event by giving them a rest.

[DaveP043]

I play a course with some severely contoured greens, so we have lots of chances to have "tricked-up" pin positions.  Even with proper pins, we have holes where a putt from the wrong part of the green simply cannot be stopped near the hole.  Sometimes I'm putting to make sure I leave my first attempt within 2-putt range, to avoid bring 4-putt into play..  We have "good" pin positions where the best miss is off the green rather than behind it.  So I understand the frustration.  All I ever ask is for balance.  I'd suggest that no more than about 1/3 of the pins should be really tough, but similarly no more than 1/3 should be "easy."  An "easy" pin doesn't mean you can get close to it from the fairway, only that its easy to stop a putt near the hole from any direction.  Knowing there's a false front, and putting from behind the hole, if I get it to the hole its an accident.  Without playing with you on that day, I'll never know for sure how bad the pins were.  All you can do is plan as best you can, look for safe spots to putt to, and accept the results no matter how bad (or how good) they are.

[natureboy]

1 hour ago, David in FL said:

Sometimes the guy cutting the pins is just in a foul mood...

I remember one that was placed literally in the middle of the slope between two tiers.

That one had me scratching my head.

[bkuehn1952]

It is fairly rare where I think someone has gone out of their way to create tough hole locations.  Maybe 2-3 really tough ones is not unreasonable.  As others have said, everyone has to play the same course so just I try to play a smart shot and deal with what I find.  If a course always sets up the positions so as to create an overly tough test, play elsewhere.

[DrvFrShow]

They did this on a course I played. Greens ran fast and pin placements were crazy and instead of going for the birdie putts or even par putts on scrambles, I'd lag them close to 1 or 2 feet for a tap in. Playing defensive golf for the round. It beat missing the hole and having an 8 footer coming back. Sure took the fun out of the round.

[Hardspoon]

6 hours ago, Fairway_CY said:

Has anybody else played a round at a course set up like that?  How many holes set up with ridiculous pin positions is too many on a single course?  
 

 

5 hours ago, iacas said:

That said, maybe you played on a day when they had a "Hell Day" type tournament, or a weekly "tough pins" scramble (the course at which I took my PAT was set up for that the day I played in the PAT)… or something like that.

I once showed up at a course on a Wednesday afternoon, since I had finished up some job meetings and was able to escape for a round at a course I'd been wanting to play for a while (Upper Makefield Highlands near Philadelphia).  When I got to the pro shop, the guy warned me that the course was set up for a tournament, and the pin positions were "brutal".

He wasn't exaggerating.  They were ridiculous.  It seemed like every green had a pin in the hardest spot that you could imagine one reasonably being.  Even aiming for the middle of greens, it made any miss deadly.  It was also a very windy day, so I quickly gave up on anything resembling a decent score.

On the 8th hole, a 163-yard par-3, the hole was cut about 6 feet onto the green, completely protected by a large bunker in the front, so the only play was way off to the right at the throat of the green.  I pulled my shot a bit...for a hole-in-one. 

And that's my "tricked-up pins" story.

[WUTiger]

I played in an amateur circuit event last year, and a short par 4 #14 with an horseshoe ridge in the  green gave everyone trouble. The pin was cut right on top of a narrow ridge - someone forgot to change the prior day's scramble cup.

The first threesome took 10 putts (3, 3, 4). A course marshall was called over, and said just to play it out. After more 3- and 4-putt threesomes, the tourney chief said the scores on #14 didn't count. After the normal round, everyone played hole #1 a second time as a replacement hole.

All were happy, except for a guy who played it out and got a 1-putt.  

[chilepepper]

A. The guy cutting the cups was in a bad mood

B. They guy cutting cups was a newbie non player

C. That's where the pro/super wanted them cut. If it wasn't a tourney I doubt this was the case

[dave s]

The back 9 on my home course (league) has treacherous greens.  Most with only one reasonable hole location per green.  Cups are rarely cut in the 'reasonable location' on any green.  #10 is driver, short iron and 3-4 putts.  Diabolical green with usual pin placements.  I've been in a group walking off #12 (a par 3) with a collective score of 23 strokes.  Most greens have some sort of 'shelf' or 'pedestal' feature and hole locations usually end up there.  Spots where it's very easy to 3-putt from 15 feet.  Couple of greens have false fronts, (see #12 above) where if the the pin is in the front third of the green and your ball is deep, it's tough to stop the ball in, or close to the hole.

Another course favored by many locals, (not me!) is loaded with false front greens and nearly every one is heavily graded downhill back to front.  The false front areas run at like 10 on the stimp (sp?) meter which can run out 30-60 feet back into the fairway.  The course is interesting, always in great shape but for goodness sake, who wants 3-putt every green?  My group of homies all have the course on their 'don't play' list.

Greens need to be at least FAIR with pin placements or it makes for a really long day and needless level of frustration.

dave

[DaveP043]

15 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

They did this on a course I played. Greens ran fast and pin placements were crazy and instead of going for the birdie putts or even par putts on scrambles, I'd lag them close to 1 or 2 feet for a tap in. Playing defensive golf for the round. It beat missing the hole and having an 8 footer coming back. Sure took the fun out of the round.

In my mind, if you can leave a putt within a couple feet from most directions, its a pretty fair pin position.  

[sjduffers]

I played once on a course set up for a "Hell Day", where the members have fun requesting (and getting) the worst positions on every green. Some holes were located in the middle of a slope, or just a few feet away from the edge of a green with a severe slope away from it (front or side), some mere feet behind bunkers, some on top of bowls, and the kicker on #18, one at the very top of a steep slope (just a few feet away from the edge of the green), where you had to put uphill with some curve and make it, or the ball would roll back to your feet. A 5 or 6-putt was not uncommon on that last hole. Fun day, sure, but with a meaningless score in the end.

The best part was watching the groups coming in on #18 and heckle them for missing all these putts, after having done the exact same thing!