"Playing From a Position" à la Jim Venetos

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, Jim Venetos said:

Iacas, I simply responded to your claim that the swing I teach hurts the body.

I made no such statement. Nor anything close to such a statement.

22 minutes ago, Jim Venetos said:

I'm not interested in a debate especially since you haven't tried the swing. I suggest to you if you are going to be involved in forums that discuss golf instruction maybe you should try the system before you knock it.

I don't have to have "tried" a swing to be able to discuss it. Your swing has a lower ceiling than a swing that actually uses the legs and torso for more than holding up your arms. It's going to deliver less speed and thus less distance. Distance is important.

[Jim Venetos]

That says a lot about your ability to vet a system. You know enough about a swing that I created and have taught for 25 years without trying it and then you state it lacks power. It’s clear that you don't understand where the power comes from in the swing I teach. Understandable. So why not ask me what my club head speed is or whether or not my students gain or lose power or where the power comes from? Would you prefer to shift weight in your swing as opposed to just keeping your weight still? What if still weight actually improved power and consistency?

signing off to help those that want to hit powerful, solid, tight draws. 

Stay Still,

Jim

[LMoore]

I watched the video several times. Contrary to his audio directions, I watched his hands, shoulders, head, and hips before, during, and after impact. He does several things that promote a ball that travels the intended path.....head still, lag, good release. I can see where this might help a poor ball striker, or someone with limited flexibility.

However, the person that incorperates this swing will most definately limit the distance.

Whether conventional or single plane swing, both use the legs and hips to generate swing speed. I can't for the life of me see where this will allow max speed of the club. Nor can I find a Youtube video where he hits the driver, and even claims hitting up on the ball with a driver is the wrong way. ????????????

[NM Golf]

@Jim Venetos First, I know a lot of people who have been doing something for 25 years and are still not very good at it. So repeatedly stating how many years of experience you have means nothing. In fact, I would even go as far to say that experience can even be a drawback in many forms of pedagogy as "experienced" instructors tend themselves to stop learning in a time where better instructional techniques and theories are being discovered at a rampant pace. Hell, we know now that the short game and putting are not the most important parts of the game when it comes to scoring. Blurting out that little gem of knowledge would have been blasphemous 10-15 years ago.

Now I am not saying you don't know what you are doing, but I do know there are many on here with a deep understanding of the golf swing. Saying you know more than they do just because you've been doing it longer is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as saying a golf swing, any golf swing, is completely harmless to the body.

[ChetlovesMer]

Hey Jim,

I'm open minded. I too would like to see a driver video. 
 

[Vinsk]

Looks it may help as a drill. And possibly good for those who can’t seem to hit a solid chip shot, maybe a pitch. However as others requested I too would am interested in seeing a long iron, driver and your swing speed @Jim Venetos.

[iacas]

On 4/25/2019 at 10:38 AM, Jim Venetos said:

That says a lot about your ability to vet a system.

It doesn't, really, in my opinion. The thousands of instructional posts I've made here on the forum - posts you've not seen (not that I'd expect you to, having come in after a Google search for your name or whatever brought you directly to this topic) say a lot about my ability to discern some things.

The swing you demonstrated gives up speed by not using the lower body and using the torso very, very little. You're giving up some speed by not using those body parts. Yes, in general, I'd tend to agree that it's "easier" to be "more consistent" with fewer moving parts, but fewer moving parts - at least when they're these parts that aren't moving - also saps speed/power.

On 4/25/2019 at 10:38 AM, Jim Venetos said:

You know enough about a swing that I created and have taught for 25 years without trying it and then you state it lacks power.

I know enough about biomechanics to be able to state that.

Hey, I've been a proponent that the arms are responsible for the majority of a swing's speed/power. You don't have to sell me on that. But the majority is not the same as "all."

The body - the legs, the torso, etc. - also contribute, but they don't in what I've seen of your swing.

On 4/25/2019 at 10:38 AM, Jim Venetos said:

It’s clear that you don't understand where the power comes from in the swing I teach.

It comes from the arms, primarily, just like in most golf swings. My point is that you're specifically turning OFF other parts that can contribute to speed.

On 4/25/2019 at 10:38 AM, Jim Venetos said:

So why not ask me what my club head speed is

Because that's beside the point. It'd be faster if you used more parts of your body to generate speed. There's a reason most long drive guys use their legs and lower body, there's a reason Jack Nicklaus talked about how important the legs were to drive through the ball, etc.

On 4/25/2019 at 10:38 AM, Jim Venetos said:

Would you prefer to shift weight in your swing as opposed to just keeping your weight still? What if still weight actually improved power and consistency?

I generally teach a fairly centered pivot. That said, the weight and pressure, even in a centered pivot swing, moves around quite a bit, particularly (mostly) in the downswing.

Your weight shifts, too - your arms swing back, and that's enough for a 5-10% shift in weight, whether it feels like it or not.

[Slim_Pivot]

TV PROMO:

Are you a young golfer learning the game? Are you tired of getting beat by your grandfather who can’t hit it over 200 yards?

Well I have a swing for you! You will no longer slice it into the trees or blast it out of bounds. We will teach you the game your grandfather loves.

We present: Old man golf, for youngsters!

copyright 1994, all rights reserved.

Any talk about gaining power will result in up to a $300 fine and 1 day watching our videos.

[Pretzel]

On 4/25/2019 at 10:38 AM, Jim Venetos said:

That says a lot about your ability to vet a system. You know enough about a swing that I created and have taught for 25 years without trying it and then you state it lacks power. It’s clear that you don't understand where the power comes from in the swing I teach.

Your swing has no turn to the hips or shoulders. Do you know where "power", or more accurately clubhead speed, comes from in the golf swing?

The answer is in using the entire body to create tension and "lag" in multiple areas that can be used to snap each piece into place faster than if there was no tension.

The hips being ahead of the shoulders creates tension in your abs, lats, traps, and obliques - tension that can be used to help "pull" your collarbone to rotate faster than it could on its own. Your arms folding across your body puts more tension on the lats and traps, as well as increasing tension in the rhomboids, triceps, deltoids, teres major, and rotator cuff muscles (supraspinatus, infraspinatus, teres minor, and subscapularis) primarily on the side of the leading arm (left side for right-handed golfers). All this allows the arms to rotate faster than they would otherwise. When you hinge your wrists you put tension into primarily the flexor carpi ulnaris, helping to pull the wrist straight again and rotate the clubhead faster than your hands alone can move. 

Back down below the hips, your legs can increase the speed of the forward hip rotation with the tension applied to the gluteal muscles in combination with using the quads to snap the leg into a straightened position. The gluteus maximus pulls the lead thigh backwards, while the quads pull the lead leg straight (pulls the whole leg behind you, dragging the hips from in front) and the quads of the rear leg push it straight (with the hip flexors moving the thigh towards your front) as a means of using the trail leg to "push" the hips faster. This is made possible by a squatting motion at the top of the downswing and an extension of the legs (alongside those thick glutes pulling the front thigh back and the hip flexors pulling the rear thigh forwards).

All of this tension is introduced to the various muscle groups during the normal/"traditional" backswing, which serves the purpose of storing energy much like what would happen if you stretched a spring or an elastic band. Unlike a spring or elastic band, however, our muscles can also contract on their own and actively pull instead of only passively pulling in response to being stretched.

The swing you teach, @Jim Venetos, does not store as much energy during the backswing as a traditional golf swing. You do not move your legs or hips at all during the backswing, and only barely move the shoulders. All that energy that is stored during the backswing of a normal golf swing is lost entirely, and the muscles used during the downswing do not have as much leverage to be able to rotate your body and club through the ball as quickly.

Here's a comparison of how much/where energy is stored at the top of the backswing for your swing versus a traditional swing:

Note that in purple I'm specifically referencing the amount of arm rotation relative to the shoulders. You both have about the same angle between your shoulders and your arms. McIlroy has more energy from his arms being rotated further behind the ball, however, but this is covered in the other points.

Here's a comparison of those two swings again, except this time at impact and including context from the motion of the downswing:

You're only swinging with your arms and a little bit of your shoulders. Rory McIlroy, and others with a traditional golf swing, can utilize the gigantic muscles in their abdomen, hips, and thighs to maximize the power of the golf swing.

You remove the motion of half the body in the golf swing. This can simplify the swing, as you intended it to, but it will never result in increased power because you're not utilizing all the muscle groups that you could otherwise use to increase swing speed.

On 4/25/2019 at 10:38 AM, Jim Venetos said:

So why not ask me what my club head speed is or whether or not my students gain or lose power or where the power comes from? Would you prefer to shift weight in your swing as opposed to just keeping your weight still? What if still weight actually improved power and consistency?

Why don't you go ahead and share those clubhead speed numbers achieved by you and your students? I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is and propose the following bet:

We both create an video of 3 driver shots in a row on a launch monitor, attempting to fulfill the following goals:

• Power
  • The swing speed on all 3 shots should be 120 mph or higher
• Accuracy
  • The difference in carry distance between the longest and shortest shots should be no more than 20 yards
    • This filters out big mishits that result from swinging beyond your abilities
  • The horizontal distance between the furthest left and furthest right shots should be no more than 35 yards
    • This is the width of an average fairway
    • This filters out uncontrolled hooks and slices that result from swinging beyond your abilities
• Video
  • No cuts or editing that would make it possible to edit separate swings into a single attempt
  • Video must visually show the speed, carry distance, and horizontal dispersion for each shot
    • This can be shown in a single graph at the end of the 3 shots or individually for each shot
  • I will post my video on YouTube and publicly share it in this thread
  • Your video can be of either you or one of your students, so long as the person in your video uses your swing technique
    • If you would rather not post it publicly, you are more than welcome to post it as a private YouTube video and send the link to access that video in a PM directly to myself and a second site moderator/staff member
    • The second site moderator/staff member should be sent the video just so they can verify the results - I will be honest about what I see, but this can give you extra assurance that I have honest intentions
    • If it is a video of a student, you're welcome to protect their anonymity by placing a black block over their head/face so long as we can still see their swing mechanics
  • Both videos must be created within 2 weeks of you accepting the bet
    • This gives you time to record it yourself or find a student willing to help you
  • Unlimited attempts are allowed, so long as each attempt is 3 swings in a row

I will give you very generous terms for this bet as well. The terms of the bet's payouts can be seen below, with all situations assuming that all video requirements are met unless stated otherwise:

• I pay you $40 if
  • You meet the power, accuracy, and video requirements - it doesn't matter what my video looks like
  • I fail to produce a video that meets the video requirements
• I pay you $20 if
  • You meet the power requirement - even if you fail the accuracy requirements - and I cannot meet the power requirement myself
• I pay you $10 if
  • You meet the power requirement - even if you fail the accuracy requirements - and I meet the power requirement but fail the accuracy requirements
• You pay me $40 if
  • I meet all requirements and you fail the power requirement
• Nobody pays anybody if
  • Anything else happens

The only way for you to lose money is if I am 100% successful in meeting both power and accuracy requirements and you are unable to back up your bold claims about not losing power to a traditional swing. If you truly believe what you teach, put your money where you mouth is and take this bet with me. I have the advantage of youth, which is why I'm letting you have favorable terms for the bet AND letting you pick any person who uses your swing methods.

When it comes to the power of your swing method, this is all I have to say:

Put up or shut up

[Baba]

An honest opinion!!!
We take  lessons, we buy latest equipment, we watch hours of videos and read books ,  we try things with ropes and hatchets and brooms so that we improve in a game that challenges us against each other but one self. A game that looks easy enough to grasp and yet like sand its impossible to do so.
I get to play 3 to 4 times a month. In tournaments I have always played worse than my handicap. A scratch handicapper trapped in a handicapped body.
I have been playing for 21 odd years, started late at 19. 

-I would seldom get time to warm up before a round .
-I would slice and fade a lot. 
-I mess around with my equipment try anything new that comes into the market that promises a change on a regular basis.
- Taken my share of  lessons. Done everything I could to get rid of the SLICE and improve , from 5 to 6 golf teachers over the years , from professionals and of course YouTube. Have read books from Harvey penicks to technical stuff every shot counts to zen golf. Have read so much I know more about theoretical mechanics of a golf swing than I need to or care to.
-I had over 200 videos saved from YouTube of golf instructions.
-I have caddied for my brother on the Asian tour for fun. And loved it.
-I had an ACL repair years ago so always have a feeling of weakness in my right knee.
-And would always always get a lower back ache if I played back to back rounds of golf over a weekend.

"What I hated the most about my game"
1. Lack of consistency which included my share of duffing or mishitting of all long irons 4i to 7i. Always struggled with my long irons.
2. After aiming and executing, would never be sure that I will get even close to what I have tried and once the balls airborne would just cross my fingers.
3. Although a decent short game but  the fat hit and the occasional thinned shots on my delicate chips or bunkers would creep in.
3. My driver or 3w got me no roll , the ball would not roll even 5 yards even in hard conditions.
4. Finally that crazy slice when I would need to go for it with my Woods.
5. Always ended up playing a good round with 3-4 terrible holes.

Distances :- 
I hit my driver 230 yards carry.
3 wood 215 yards carry. 
5i 165 yards 
7i 145 yards 
PW 110 yards 
Usual scenario on the first tee  ..ball goes Right! That has been the case for many many years. 
Takes me 3 holes to get warmed up but usually the damage is already done.. 
The best thing I did to reduce my slice was I went 1 degree upright on the irons , got a driver that had a draw setting.

Most coaches /pros informed me :- 
A. I hit with my right side subconsciously feel I need to use it for power. And try and hit too hard.
B. I have a chronic over the top move, it reduces when I hit with ease amplifies when I try and hit hard.
C. I rotate too early.
D. Some said my wrists are too cocked some said too late some said not enough.
E. Some said reverse weight shift some said not enough turn and some said too upright.
I can go on and on. 

Then I discovered Jim venetos on YouTube.
Tried some stuff he talks about but didn't make sense and I too dismisses it. As  never seen any pro play this way. Also the fact it makes one stand out and look so different.
On a bad day on a course I tried his swing .. mixed with my traditional swing.
Ended up playing way better!!!
So I decided to get in touch and signed up.

I got in my own way. To be honest for almost 8 months. I would let traditional swing thoughts and doubt stop me from doing what was asked. It was frustrating , I was being advised by most of my friends to get back to tradition.

His swing relies on stillness and after that everything should happen as the body allows without manipulation.
But we all come from a place  where golf involves analogy s from waiters carrying trays to railway tracks. We come from a place where every bit of the swing is manipulated and scrutinised. 
AND AN AVERAGE GOLFER LIKE MYSELF IS STUCK! We just do not improve. When i say we its us the guys who buy the latest promise the company brings out, we buy into every gimmick or advice dished out , we make coaches make a living.
3 months back I gave up my old swing and completely.

Jim isn't greedy. He wants you to succeed. He guides, he is patient, he has replied to my every query however silly within 24 hours every single time. 

Finally Learnt to stay CLOSED! 
and i am so proud of my game right now. 
Maybe this method worked for me. The traditional did not.
No I am not yet a scratch golfer but aspiring to be one.

Here are some of the stuff that Jim's method helped me with:-
1. I have not duffed a SINGLE chip in last 9 rounds.
2. All short game play is bump and runs unless there's a bunker or trouble, with excellent "consistent" results.
3. Haven't left my ball even once in the sand after trying to get out. And have only got closer. Anyway we don't practice our bunker play enough.
4. I do not use his putting method as I use a claw grip and look at the hole and putt. But his right side slight pivot I have adopted to great consistent results.
5. My Slice is gone! My miss is that it goes straight and doesn't come back with an occasional low hook when i Do not stay closed at impact. The only thing i require to do , my "swing thought" is stay still or stay closed. I chose stay closed.
6. For 21 years I have aimed left side of fairways knowing the ball will come in never knowing how much. I now aim right towards even an ob and get a sweet tight draw that comes back in. 
7  I can hit a 4i well for the first time, 175 yards carry.
8. I get an awesome roll on my 3w and drivers. I have a long way to go with my driver and 3w. But 3 months back I doubted it and now I can hit as long as my past distances with ball being alot more in play.
9. I haven't hit a single a top with my irons in last 5 rounds.
10. Never hit my smaller irons more crisply as I do now.
11. Crispness and contact from the word go.  It's the only way one can hit a chip , an iron or a wood well without warming up from the first shot. Whether in practice or a round of golf. It's crazy. On a practice green if the first chip counts I will be closer than many golfers who are better than me.
12.  I have not had a back pain even once even if I do not warm up. My right leg is great also I decided to work hard on it to get it stronger.
13.. Crazy consistency and predictability.
14. Jim's emphasis is on being still. That's it .. I mean that's it. A person like me  has over 3 to 4 thoughts on every swing. And total stillness is something I still struggle with.
I would change something in my swing after every round. Keeping my mind clear works if I concentrate on stillness my chips get a lot closer, the minute I let thoughts creep in they still stay hit but not as close.
I played a tournament 3 days back played to 10 over!  Greens had coring done and were so bad. One of the most confident rounds where I hit a perfect draw from the first tee.
I hit 12 regulations from championship tees.
If I have an Island green at 150 yards , I would always go with Jim's swing. It's just that consistent and predictable.

Would I dismiss Jims swing or challenge anyone I am not that kind of a guy. Just feel privileged to be able to follow and play this game. But I can say this if you are a player stuck  and not improving its worth trying. At least once! It's free on YouTube.
Baba
 

[iacas]

@Baba, we've never said it's not "a" way to hit a golf ball. We've said it's limiting and puts you under an artificially low ceiling.

I'm glad you've found something that works for you, and that you're happy playing golf.

You should post more than once every two years in only this topic.

[ChetlovesMer]

@Baba I would still really like somebody to post a video clip of them hitting a driver with this method. 

[62toyou]

I re-joined TST just to comment on the Venetos method.  The main reasons cited for assuming that Jim's method is only for the non-serious golfer are: you will lose distance; it will stress your lead side; it won't work with a driver (contrary to comments herein, there are multiple videos of Jim hitting a driver); it will lower the level you can achieve, etc.  Why would this method be more likely to stress your lead side than the accepted method of transferring weight to that side? I don't agree with Jim that hitting down on drives is good, but simply by moving the ball slightly forward one can hit up with this method.  Also, be truthful, how many players do you play with that actually work the ball to any significant degree (even very low handicaps-at least the ones I play with all the time).  If your expectation is to play on a tour, then this may not be your swing, but if you aim a little lower (club championship, etc.) and aren't attaining your goals, maybe giving Jim's method a real go might not be a bad idea.  I wish I had found this method when I was younger, but even as a senior player the freedom it gives me in making a repeatable wide swing without a need to worry about where the club is at every point in the swing, is very relaxing and rewarding.  The only negative is you will be assaulted by your fellow golfers, up to the point you start winning the bets.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, 62toyou said:

I re-joined TST just to comment on the Venetos method

What was your previous username?

5 hours ago, 62toyou said:

The main reasons cited for assuming that Jim's method is only for the non-serious golfer are: you will lose distance;

Which is true.

5 hours ago, 62toyou said:

it will stress your lead side;

One person said this, and we can't even be sure he was doing it the "right" way. This isn't something I'd call a "main reason."

5 hours ago, 62toyou said:

it won't work with a driver (contrary to comments herein, there are multiple videos of Jim hitting a driver);

Be fair: nobody's ever posted a video of someone hitting a driver here, and you disagree with his comments about hitting down.

5 hours ago, 62toyou said:

it will lower the level you can achieve, etc.

Also true.

So of your list of four things, two are true, one was said by one guy "trying it out" or something, and the last you agree is not ideal and which nobody here has seen (by all means, post a video of the driver videos he has).

5 hours ago, 62toyou said:

Why would this method be more likely to stress your lead side than the accepted method of transferring weight to that side?

I don't know, but again, this was just said by the OP, IIRC. It's not a major point of discussion.

5 hours ago, 62toyou said:

I don't agree with Jim that hitting down on drives is good, but simply by moving the ball slightly forward one can hit up with this method.

You disagree with his method here.

5 hours ago, 62toyou said:

If your expectation is to play on a tour, then this may not be your swing…

So you agree with the lower ceiling.

5 hours ago, 62toyou said:

but if you aim a little lower (club championship, etc.) and aren't attaining your goals, maybe giving Jim's method a real go might not be a bad idea.

Maybe it's not. But it's probably a bad idea, IMO.

Glad you've had success with it, but… two of the four things are true, and the fourth we've just not seen. (Also, FWIW, I haven't commented on the driver.)

[62toyou]

I am not looking for a debate, but just to be fair, I will address several of your comments.

I had to "re-join" TST because I apparently forgot my earlier username and I could not sign in (old age I guess}.

 I didn't lose any distance by switching to this swing (e.g. max 8 iron goes 140 yds).

To be fair, I said there were lots of videos of Venetos hitting a driver, I didn't say they were posted on TST--see You Tube.

I am not a strict adherent to Mr. Venetos's teachings, but I have incorporated many of his ideas into the swing I use.

To date no one using a Venetos like swing has played on Tour and to my knowledge no such golfer has tried to qualify.  My guess is that it will be some time before anyone dares trying, although there are some out of the norm swings being used at the college and tour levels.  The ceiling for odd swings may be changing.

Finally, just one man's prediction---There was a well respected golf instructor in Md. whose students all had the most appealing swing one could hope for, the only problem was not one of them ever won a meaningful event.  Ergo, my bet is that some time in the future the emphasis will be more on results than on the aesthetics and a Venetos-like instructor will displace some of the guys who have been getting by on manufactured reputations for way too long.

Golf on.

Edited June 3, 2019 by 62toyou
spelling

[klineka]

3 minutes ago, 62toyou said:

I am not looking for a debate

Then what was the point of posting on the thread? Why share what parts of the method you agree and disagree with if you have no intention of debating it?

[iacas]

41 minutes ago, 62toyou said:

I am not looking for a debate

Kinda the point of a forum, to discuss, debate, share, converse, etc.

41 minutes ago, 62toyou said:

I didn't lose any distance by switching to this swing (e.g. max 8 iron goes 140 yds).

Nobody ever said YOU wouldn't lose any distance.

But you've put an artificial ceiling on the distance you could achieve by using more of your body to generate speed.

41 minutes ago, 62toyou said:

To be fair, I said there were lots of videos of Venetos hitting a driver, I didn't say they were posted on TST--see You Tube.

People asked to see them. Still none have been posted. If you want to defend one side of things, it's lazy to say "go look for yourself." Just post some videos. Present your side of the argument.

41 minutes ago, 62toyou said:

To date no one using a Venetos like swing has played on Tour and to my knowledge no such golfer has tried to qualify. My guess is that it will be some time before anyone dares trying, although there are some out of the norm swings being used at the college and tour levels.

He's been teaching it for 25 years.

41 minutes ago, 62toyou said:

The ceiling for odd swings may be changing.

This isn't just an "odd" swing - it's a deficient swing with an artificially low ceiling for one of the game's most important attributes - speed/power. That's an important differentiator in EVERY sport.

41 minutes ago, 62toyou said:

Ergo, my bet is that some time in the future the emphasis will be more on results than on the aesthetics and a Venetos-like instructor will displace some of the guys who have been getting by on manufactured reputations for way too long.

No. It's not about that.

The point is that you can't get the high level results with this swing that you can with more traditional swings that use more than just your arms.

[ChetlovesMer]

On 6/2/2019 at 11:37 AM, 62toyou said:

it won't work with a driver (contrary to comments herein, there are multiple videos of Jim hitting a driver); 

I would like to chime in here. I have tried to find a video of Jim, or somebody using his method hitting a driver and I can't find one. I have found several videos on YouTube of Jim TALKING about hitting a driver. I've found a couple of him HOLDING a driver while talking about it. But I can't find any of him actually hitting one. I was hoping to find a video of him hitting driver with some form of feedback device. (i.e. trackman, GC Quad, etc...) But I can't even find one of him demonstrating hitting a driver. 

I am not saying this method won't work. I am not saying there are no videos of this method with a driver. What I AM saying is that I can't find any videos of him hitting a driver. PLEASE post or link one. 

18 hours ago, 62toyou said:

To be fair, I said there were lots of videos of Venetos hitting a driver, I didn't say they were posted on TST--see You Tube.

Please post a link. I looked and haven't been able to find them.