"Playing From a Position" à la Jim Venetos

[klineka]

On 3/2/2022 at 11:23 AM, ToddW said:

They say you are at your peak performance after about 3 years playing golf.

Who is "they" ? Where did you see/read/hear that?

3 years after playing golf I'd be lucky if I broke 100, probably averaged around 105, and wasn't anywhere close to breaking 90.

Now, ~13 years or so after starting golf my average is in the low-mid 70s, almost never shoot in the 80s, and have shot a couple rounds in the 60s.

[ToddW]

On 3/8/2022 at 7:38 PM, iacas said:

If you don't take lessons. I have a number of players playing their peak golf after 10, 20, 30 years.

I'm playing my best golf 25 years after I first started playing.

I 100% agree. I quit for 20 years, started back about 3 years ago, and I got hooked up with a guy that is the best golf instructor I have ever had.  You have to have good, correct, instruction.  I think I will probably be playing me best golf this year, at 59. 

[ToddW]

On 3/8/2022 at 8:24 PM, Vinsk said:

Jim has been teaching this method for almost 40 years. He’s also claimed to have a student with a +7 hcp. And get this: Jim claims many pros use his method because the hit the ball ‘with their lead side.’ Seriously? I guess Jim honestly believes he’s the creator of that ? Come on.

 

No. Your face is closed to your path. This will draw the ball. Your shoulders are closed and you keep them closed giving an inside to out path with the face closed to that path. If your face is square to your inside out  path, then you will hit a push. 

 

He’ll just tell you to sign up for his school. If you’re in his school, as you were, he’ll just have you hit 9i bump and run shots excessively. Did you notice there’s no good content on driver or long irons there?

 

As I said before, I don’t have beef with this method….for what it really is. An easier way to hit some nice shots and enjoy the game a bit more if you’re athletically challenged. What is utter nonsense is Jim’s claims that pros are inconsistent because the traditional method is flawed. Seriously? Jim’s disingenuous argument is his simply changing what consistent means. He does the same thing with power.
Jim also still believes the short game is where strokes are saved. He also states that hitting up with the driver is wrong. Again, Jim doesn’t stay up with today’s technology or research. He doesn’t use any monitors nor does he back anything he says with data.
His claim to fame is having gone to the Titleist Institute of Technology and being told his method is ‘ biomechanically sound.’ Of course he’s never produced any data from this visit, and never will.

So, about 2 days after I wrote this, I took another lesson with Brent Cryer, OKC golf pro. (Brent coached Max McGreevy, who recently got his PGA card) Great guy personally, and best golf coach I have ever had.  Brent had me straightened out, took the curve off the ball, I hit the best balls of my life. 

I am so, so convinced that correct proper instruction is the key to improving your game.  If it is not the right golf instruction, you could rack up 100 hours of lessons, and it still might not move you forward. 

I am not a guy that brags, I am more self deprecating type, but he really had me hitting some really good shots.  I give him more credit than me.  Way more, he figured out, I just tried to follow what he wanted me to do. 

Like I said before, I broke down on Jim's stuff when I tried to get help on lining up mid and short iron shots. I just could not get that hip pivot,, foot back, inside out path, and strong draw to line up to hit to the pin.  This is just me, but I would rather hit a straight shot to the pin, by the time I get to my 7 iron.  I want to land on the green, and it should not be an exercise in trigonometry to get lined up to do that. 

So in retrospect, maybe what I thought was so difficult, the traditional swing, might turn out to not be so difficult with the proper instruction.  Finding the right instructor is the key. 

I do believe Jim has figured it out for himself, I am certain he probably plays a great game.  I am beginning to agree there is probably a ceiling with his format for the average golfer. I can't say whether it would be any different with an in person lesson or not, but at this point, with Brent, I am not interested to find out. 

 

 

[Vinsk]

49 minutes ago, ToddW said:

do believe Jim has figured it out for himself, I am certain he probably plays a great game.  I am beginning to agree there is probably a ceiling with his format for the average golfer. I can't say whether it would be any different with an in person lesson or not, but at this point, with Brent, I am not interested to find out. 

Good for you! Glad to hear you’ve found a solid instructor. I agree with what you said as well regarding instruction. To me it’s pretty simple with Jim. Obviously there’s something limiting this method because despite his claims that it is a method qualified the most ‘elite golfers’, it’s been 40 years and not one player from any tour has come out using his method. And no, I don’t accept Jim’s claim that ‘hitting with the lead side’ is his method. 
I play my best golf using Jim’s technique. But I’m talentless and suffer from brutal shanks if I try anything different. And I still hit shanks with Jim’s method too. I’ll be curious to see what comes from my GEARS work with Erik when I finally make it there.

[Vinsk]

There’s a video series Jim did that I tried to return to and the link was broken…but boy oh boy:

’ My best student is a +7hcp. He came to me as a +2 but couldn’t take it to the course.’

Then how was he a +2?

‘ I’ve got him to a +7 and he plays to that. He’s broken many course records and wins tons of tournaments and qualifies for US amateur  tournaments regularly.’

I mean come on. I know I’m beating a dead horse but this stuff is just golden.

 

[Double Mocha Man]

4 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

’ My best student is a +7hcp. He came to me as a +2 but couldn’t take it to the course.’

The only way to have a handicap is by taking it to the course.  Though I've known range rats who hit only driver who claim to have a +7 by not taking it to the course.

[boogielicious]

2 hours ago, Vinsk said:

There’s a video series Jim did that I tried to return to and the link was broken…but boy oh boy:

’ My best student is a +7hcp. He came to me as a +2 but couldn’t take it to the course.’

Then how was he a +2?

‘ I’ve got him to a +7 and he plays to that. He’s broken many course records and wins tons of tournaments and qualifies for US amateur  tournaments regularly.’

I mean come on. I know I’m beating a dead horse but this stuff is just golden.

 

 

[Vinsk]

4 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

The only way to have a handicap is by taking it to the course.  Though I've known range rats who hit only driver who claim to have a +7 by not taking it to the course.

Right. But seriously, playing to a +7? If he’s playing to a +7 he could qualify for a lot more than just amateur tournaments. Such BS.

[Be Still]

Hi Guys. I'm happy to have seen this thread and I read many of it- there are comments that sounds as disbelief and I can totally relate as it was much like when I started to take lessons from Jim in 2010.

I did because I was in awe of his ball striking for one.  The sound, the distance the curvatures, the height or piercing trajectories completely impressed me- short game, he's got it- trick shots, I've seen a couple.  Not that it was my first time to see someone like that.  My step dad was a PGA pro Class A, and he taught some high level players and I have also been around many of his students and many of his other PGA pro buddies students who hits them all a mile (rest in peace, dad).  But one day on the range struggling to make a decent shot, I saw him and I asked him what he does and he explained.  He helped me for a few afternoons, after that, we just texted.  I did his drills and in the old JVGA web there were 4 sets of student lessons- beginner to high level.  I only took the first one and grew from it.  (Yes, I did peek in the higher level lessons, but the beginner is what teaches me the most- or I guess, I'm not good ha ha)  His swing itself taught me the rest and I would bounce it back with him.  9 out of ten times in many conversation, he would basically tell me I'm on the right path and I went and played and enjoyed the ease without having to really practice much.  Here I am now at 11.9 (lol) and maybe rising, but I'll have my years old injury of my right shoulder fixed in a week or so with hopes to alleviate my pain on it.  But I have been a solid 5-6 with Jim's method before.  I know, it's hard to believe, but some of the guys I didn't hang with before who were the same handicap actually played with me regularly then.

The young man who is a +7 used to be a -5 or -6 and I believe I know that kid.  He really wasn't the only one.  At the time, there were a few kids who did his method- two of them were both +s.  Then the media blew up and students from around the world shows up.  One I remember was an old dude from Australia who belonged to one of their old course built by Alister McKenzie- he had a beautiful JVGA swing.  I also remember times when me and a buddy of mine would drop the game and discretely follow those groups along with Jim.  

Anyway, yeah, it is okay to wonder just like I did before.  But in my case, the moment I needed help, he was there.  The lesson I was expecting was completely different.  The mechanics I learned were completely different but simple- just be still.  My knowledge and performance are from the basic training alone- I never really had the need for advanced like his other students.  I've been with the Venetos swing for a while now and I love it- I love my swing that I know others do not, and that is okay with me.  We're doing something very different and others are doing something very different is all.  These days, I am the only one I know who plays this way around my circle, but I try and keep up with my group or the other way around- it's the same golf.

I don't really know much, but I guess I just like golf like everyone here.  Thanks for the read.

[iacas]

If there was a +7 he’d be playing on a Tour.

I’m happy for you, but my BS detector is sounding off on some of this stuff.

[Vinsk]

2 hours ago, Be Still said:

Hi Guys. I'm happy to have seen this thread and I read many of it- there are comments that sounds as disbelief and I can totally relate as it was much like when I started to take lessons from Jim in 2010.

I did because I was in awe of his ball striking for one.  The sound, the distance the curvatures, the height or piercing trajectories completely impressed me- short game, he's got it- trick shots, I've seen a couple.  Not that it was my first time to see someone like that.  My step dad was a PGA pro Class A, and he taught some high level players and I have also been around many of his students and many of his other PGA pro buddies students who hits them all a mile (rest in peace, dad).  But one day on the range struggling to make a decent shot, I saw him and I asked him what he does and he explained.  He helped me for a few afternoons, after that, we just texted.  I did his drills and in the old JVGA web there were 4 sets of student lessons- beginner to high level.  I only took the first one and grew from it.  (Yes, I did peek in the higher level lessons, but the beginner is what teaches me the most- or I guess, I'm not good ha ha)  His swing itself taught me the rest and I would bounce it back with him.  9 out of ten times in many conversation, he would basically tell me I'm on the right path and I went and played and enjoyed the ease without having to really practice much.  Here I am now at 11.9 (lol) and maybe rising, but I'll have my years old injury of my right shoulder fixed in a week or so with hopes to alleviate my pain on it.  But I have been a solid 5-6 with Jim's method before.  I know, it's hard to believe, but some of the guys I didn't hang with before who were the same handicap actually played with me regularly then.

The young man who is a +7 used to be a -5 or -6 and I believe I know that kid.  He really wasn't the only one.  At the time, there were a few kids who did his method- two of them were both +s.  Then the media blew up and students from around the world shows up.  One I remember was an old dude from Australia who belonged to one of their old course built by Alister McKenzie- he had a beautiful JVGA swing.  I also remember times when me and a buddy of mine would drop the game and discretely follow those groups along with Jim.  

Anyway, yeah, it is okay to wonder just like I did before.  But in my case, the moment I needed help, he was there.  The lesson I was expecting was completely different.  The mechanics I learned were completely different but simple- just be still.  My knowledge and performance are from the basic training alone- I never really had the need for advanced like his other students.  I've been with the Venetos swing for a while now and I love it- I love my swing that I know others do not, and that is okay with me.  We're doing something very different and others are doing something very different is all.  These days, I am the only one I know who plays this way around my circle, but I try and keep up with my group or the other way around- it's the same golf.

I don't really know much, but I guess I just like golf like everyone here.  Thanks for the read.

Thank you for the read. I too continue to swing with this method. My only real critique is like Erik said, there’s some BS going on with Jim. Not just the +7 story, but in his comments about Tour players and the ‘traditional swing.’ Jim gets around his claims often by changing what the words mean. ‘Tour players are inconsistent because the traditional method is flawed.’ Really? Do you honestly think it’s reasonable to say those guys are inconsistent?

Any one of those players holding a card can run circles around Jim or any of his students. Inconsistent. I mean, golf itself is inconsistent. One of the reasons it’s so difficult. These guys will play dozens of rounds all under par. So whatever meaning Jim is giving inconsistent is really a moot point no?

His video where he makes fun of instructors using a towel saying it’s ridiculous and how we’d never use a towel to learn how to shoot an arrow or a basketball is academically disingenuous at best. The problem is Jim defends himself with partial truths and pseudoscience. Once he’s challenged he bails. And usually just says something like ‘ I have a student that’s a +7.’ In a nutshell, Jim has these issues that any reasonably serious student wants/deserves:

1. He has no data. Period. Saying the Titleist institute of Technology called his swing mechanically sound holds zero weight.

2. 40 years of teaching yet not one player on any tour uses the JVGA swing. And no, hitting from the front side is not JVGA.

3. He’ll never do an interview with a respected instructor of the ‘traditional’ method. A Q&A. All his interviews are with non-instructors or Joe Blow golfers.

4. He refuses to acknowledge the science that clearly shows flaws in his comments I.e. why one shouldn’t hit up on the golf ball with driver. He’s wrong. His comments on spin are half-truths and half-wrong.

So like you I enjoy the method as it’s simply easier for me to play some nice golf. But to promote this as an elite level method and say that Tour players are flawed and inconsistent is asinine. And I’m quite certain this +7 hcp is either: non-existent, doesn’t really use Jim’s method but just some of his principles, or he’s an anomaly who just chooses to not play on tour. And I’m suspicious as to what courses he’s played to establish a +7 if true at all.

Doesn’t make much sense to have a tour level player you’ve coached and hide him from the world does it? Any reasonable person would show videos and proudly show his stats and show us how we can learn from him. But no. Total silence. So again, the BS detector is beeping.🙂

[saevel25]

11 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Jim gets around his claims often by changing what the words mean. ‘Tour players are inconsistent because the traditional method is flawed.’ Really? Do you honestly think it’s reasonable to say those guys are inconsistent?

That is such lazy comment in my opinion. To me it is amazing how consistent they are at golf. As people get better at golf, I think they realize how good PGA Tour players are. Closer you get to scratch golf, the more you realize it is hard to to improve even one stroke more, and these PGA Tour players are like +4 to +7 handicap. To me, that feels like when you are a +20 looking at a scratch golfer and thinking, "How the heck can I get there!"

 

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

That is such lazy comment in my opinion. To me it is amazing how consistent they are at golf. As people get better at golf, I think they realize how good PGA Tour players are. Closer you get to scratch golf, the more you realize it is hard to to improve even one stroke more, and these PGA Tour players are like +4 to +7 handicap. To me, that feels like when you are a +20 looking at a scratch golfer and thinking, "How the heck can I get there!"

 

Yes. I understand Jim at one point was frustrated with his instruction and wanted to find an ‘easier way.’ And that’s fine. I just don’t understand why he feels it necessary to criticize the traditional swing ideologies, the instructors, and TOUR players. It’s almost comical that he completely ignores the fact that they are the best golfers in the world. It’s like saying I’ve found a better way to dribble a basketball and James Harding is inconsistent and flawed. 

[ChetlovesMer]

13 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Doesn’t make much sense to have a tour level player you’ve coached and hide him from the world does it? Any reasonable person would show videos and proudly show his stats and show us how we can learn from him. But no. Total silence. So again, the BS detector is beeping.🙂

This

[Be Still]

On 4/1/2022 at 3:48 PM, iacas said:

If there was a +7 he’d be playing on a Tour.

I’m happy for you, but my BS detector is sounding off on some of this stuff.

Sorry iacas.  I was there.

[iacas]

Just now, Be Still said:

Sorry iacas.  I was there.

And, what, you saw the guy shoot a +7 rated round?

Details, please. Because otherwise, knowing a fair bit about this type of stuff, I'll remain skeptical.

As is @Vinsk.

[Be Still]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

And, what, you saw the guy shoot a +7 rated round?

Details, please. Because otherwise, knowing a fair bit about this type of stuff, I'll remain skeptical.

As is @Vinsk.

What can I say, I see him and his group including Jim playing, I see and hear they had played consistently in the 60's.  Many of them in the low 60's.  also tied the course record.  It was great, sir.

 

[iacas]

Just now, Be Still said:

What can I say, I see him and his group including Jim playing, I see and hear they had played consistently in the 60's.  Many of them in the low 60's.  also tied the course record.  It was great, sir.

I'll renew my skepticism. A true +7 would be known beyond some mysterious guy used to promote a relatively small-time golf instructor. You didn't see him play an 18-hole round, you "heard" he shoots "consistently" in the 60s… etc.

And, as @Vinsk has pointed out, renew the point that not one single Tour player has used the JV golf swing.

Meanwhile, if I wanted to promote myself, I could say I "teach" a swing that has the components used by the last few hundred major champions.

😛

Jim has been invited to participate in discussions here. He's taken pot shots, declined to answer questions, etc.