Playing Lesson or Range Time?

[HitAndGiggle]

I'm currently sharing a series of lessons with a local pro with my son. The last couple for each of us will occur at a "19th-hole" bunker/green facility at the course, and on the course. I'm looking forward to it. Will report back here. My first few lessons on the range have really been impactful - substantial setup changes for me, along with a couple swing changes. Leaves me much to work on from here on out. But, I like to work on it.

[Buckeyebowman]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

There is a score in practicing - it's how well you've changed the picture. How well you've worked on your priority piece. How well you figured out your wedge distances. How well you've managed your start lines.

In LSW we proposed a number of ways you can keep score by practicing different things.

You can only get so good playing golf. Playing golf does not give you the opportunity to hit the same shot from a tricky lie or an awkward or different situation until you figure it out, and it may be weeks or months before you see that same situation again.

Most people who "practice" don't do so with any purpose, and that is the real problem (for those who want to improve - if you're content to just play golf and do as you've always done, by all means, have a ball!).

Well said, by the Master himself. Believe me, I've thought about this reply since I made it. And some of the thoughts above occurred to me. For instance, tricky lies or awkward situations, I think meaning stances.

Ask yourselves this. Have you ever been to a driving range, practice center, or whatever they may call themselves and had the opportunity to practice hitting shots from uphill, downhill, or sidehill lies? I haven't! Every range I've gone to has practice tees that are as flat as a table top!

And I thought about Ben Hogan, the man who raised practicing the golf swing to an art form! Yet, even the great Hogan said, something like, "There are not hours enough in the day to practice every shot you may be faced with on the course!"

And not to get all metaphysical about it, but the hero of Golf in the Kingdom, refers to golf as "imagination with hands". Meaning that sooner or later you will find yourself facing a shot that you have never played before. You need to have some imagination to figure out what to do.

Another reference I found to this was in George Plimpton's Bogey Man, in that really gifted pros are subject to sudden bursts of inspiration when it's called for. We hear this all the time today when commentators say something like, "He couldn't do that again if he hit a small bucket from down there", when someone hits a miraculous shot.

Like I said before, "hand in glove".

[boogielicious]

7 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Well said, by the Master himself. Believe me, I've thought about this reply since I made it. And some of the thoughts above occurred to me. For instance, tricky lies or awkward situations, I think meaning stances.

Ask yourselves this. Have you ever been to a driving range, practice center, or whatever they may call themselves and had the opportunity to practice hitting shots from uphill, downhill, or sidehill lies? I haven't! Every range I've gone to has practice tees that are as flat as a table top!

And I thought about Ben Hogan, the man who raised practicing the golf swing to an art form! Yet, even the great Hogan said, something like, "There are not hours enough in the day to practice every shot you may be faced with on the course!"

And not to get all metaphysical about it, but the hero of Golf in the Kingdom, refers to golf as "imagination with hands". Meaning that sooner or later you will find yourself facing a shot that you have never played before. You need to have some imagination to figure out what to do.

Another reference I found to this was in George Plimpton's Bogey Man, in that really gifted pros are subject to sudden bursts of inspiration when it's called for. We hear this all the time today when commentators say something like, "He couldn't do that again if he hit a small bucket from down there", when someone hits a miraculous shot.

Like I said before, "hand in glove".

Non-level lies are hard to replicate. But I have gone to the side of a range and hit balls out of the rough or out of divots to replicate odd lies I may get on the course. You can also make mental notes about ball flight and contact when you do have non-level lies.

[iacas]

9 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Ask yourselves this. Have you ever been to a driving range, practice center, or whatever they may call themselves and had the opportunity to practice hitting shots from uphill, downhill, or sidehill lies? I haven't! Every range I've gone to has practice tees that are as flat as a table top!

Go to the sides of the range. It's not difficult to find uneven lies if you're creative at all - go when others aren't likely to be there and use the edges.

Even if you get five shots in, that's two or three more than you're likely to get playing a round of golf and encountering the lie once.

9 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

And I thought about Ben Hogan, the man who raised practicing the golf swing to an art form! Yet, even the great Hogan said, something like, "There are not hours enough in the day to practice every shot you may be faced with on the course!"

You're not going to learn much practicing it on the course. Again it's just one or two shots that you have the opportunity to hit. Hogan had it different, of course, and played before Pro-Ams and the like.

9 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

And not to get all metaphysical about it, but the hero of Golf in the Kingdom, refers to golf as "imagination with hands". Meaning that sooner or later you will find yourself facing a shot that you have never played before. You need to have some imagination to figure out what to do.

No shot is like you've ever had before. There's a limit, naturally, to how much you can practice a shot. If I've hit a few pitch shots from a 20° side slope with the ball nestled down halfway, I can pretty well estimate or "imagine" what the ball will do from a 16° slope with the ball nestled 3/4 of the way down.

And obviously you know this… I just disagree with the sentiment (not necessarily yours) that the course provides such a tremendously better practice arena than the range or the short game area.

[saevel25]

I find it doesn't take much time to practice awkward lies. It doesn't take long to get a feel for them when out on the course. 

For me, the most improvement I've seen was with in person instruction at a range or indoor golf facility. Playing Lessons are good for those working on game management, short game shot selection, etc... 

[roamin]

I think @iacas and @saevel25 have summed it up nicely. My local range is all mats and concrete, but they do have a chipping area with a few small hills that I've practiced slow-mo swings on at different angles, just to work on balance. Besides the range, I have a decent slope to my front yard that I practice down/up/side-hill swings and chips from. I don't spend a lot of time on this stuff, just whenever I feel like mixing it up a little during practice.

I think the point is not to try and practice every possible, specific shot you may encounter, but rather, just focus on building the best swing you can. If your hitting greens from flat fairways, but missing them from sloped ones, then by all means, go find a way to practice side-hill lies. But I have to believe a "playing lesson" is really best for just overall game/course management, which I think is fine, but not the best use of time ($$$) to get better at any particular type of shot.

I can imagine all sorts of shots, but imagining me pulling them off is another matter. 

Edited December 30, 2016 by roamin

[thefinlex]

Teach people how to score with what they've got....perfect swings mean nothing if you don't get the ball in the hole quick as possible which is what we are all trying to do...yes? It can and is done in a million ways every day across the globe so a one size fits all swing method is impractical imho..Playing lesson invaluable to see what's going on then focus on needs from green backwards

[RandallT]

18 minutes ago, thefinlex said:

Teach people how to score with what they've got....perfect swings mean nothing if you don't get the ball in the hole quick as possible which is what we are all trying to do...yes? It can and is done in a million ways every day across the globe so a one size fits all swing method is impractical imho..Playing lesson invaluable to see what's going on then focus on needs from green backwards

Well, it's a good thing that the better instructors don't teach a perfect one-size-fits-all swing then! Are there instructors you have in mind that do that? I'd think that would be a terrible way to teach.

I see this argument a lot. Use your swing to get you around the course, and you simply need to learn how to score with it.

I've played for decades doing that. I had one summer where I was playing a fair amount and went to the range a TON. I peaked at HCP 14 or so, and considered myself a bogey golfer. No thanks.

To be honest, I find that advice is actually "one size fits all." Everyone should do what they're comfortable with, based on what's going on in their life. Perhaps that means lessons, perhaps not.

But I'd never advocate a "perfect swing" nor would I try to pointlessly pursue that. But there are concepts of a good swing that can be learned and applied. There are things that the better players do that the poorer players don't. Therefore, you will likely get better if you understand and can achieve those key things. That's not "one size fits all" nor "perfect."

[thefinlex]

On 05/01/2017 at 0:15 PM, RandallT said:

Well, it's a good thing that the better instructors don't teach a perfect one-size-fits-all swing then! Are there instructors you have in mind that do that? I'd think that would be a terrible way to teach.

I see this argument a lot. Use your swing to get you around the course, and you simply need to learn how to score with it.

I've played for decades doing that. I had one summer where I was playing a fair amount and went to the range a TON. I peaked at HCP 14 or so, and considered myself a bogey golfer. No thanks.

To be honest, I find that advice is actually "one size fits all." Everyone should do what they're comfortable with, based on what's going on in their life. Perhaps that means lessons, perhaps not.

But I'd never advocate a "perfect swing" nor would I try to pointlessly pursue that. But there are concepts of a good swing that can be learned and applied. There are things that the better players do that the poorer players don't. Therefore, you will likely get better if you understand and can achieve those key things. That's not "one size fits all" nor "perfect."

Errrr....Just voicing my opinion! Hit a nerve perhaps?..You may want to re read my post where I say its (one size fits all)impractical??????

You're welcome

[RandallT]

29 minutes ago, thefinlex said:

Errrr....Just voicing my opinion! Hit a nerve perhaps?..You may want to re read my post where I say its (one size fits all)impractical??????

You're welcome

I didn't mean to offend actually. I was in a fairly good mood when I wrote that, but apparently my words read like a nasty screed. I can actually see how it could be seen that way.

It's simply that my experience has been that I've tried to score with what I've got. I've tried to work things out on my own. I've documented in a "My Swing" thread here how things have been going once I've gotten instruction, and (for me at least), in retrospect, the mantra of "learn to score with your swing" wasn't going to be successful. Things are on a better path, now that I've taken instruction to heart. 

I don't begrudge anyone else for whom the "score with what you got/no need for perfect swing" philosophy. If that works for someone else, great. I'm a very "live and let live" person. I'm not trying to slam folks who feel that, or say that. Like you say, it's an opinion- no big deal.

My "one size fits all" comment was meant to be two-fold:

1. a good instructor wouldn't try to create a "one size fits all" solutions; and
2. if someone hears the advice that they shouldn't get lessons, that is ironically sorta like "one size fits all" advice. In truth, each person needs to decide for themselves which makes sense, and there are a ton of factors.

 

[thefinlex]

4 minutes ago, RandallT said:

I didn't mean to offend actually. I was in a fairly good mood when I wrote that, but apparently my words read like a nasty screed. I can actually see how it could be seen that way.

It's simply that my experience has been that I've tried to score with what I've got. I've tried to work things out on my own. I've documented in a "My Swing" thread here how things have been going once I've gotten instruction, and (for me at least), in retrospect, the mantra of "learn to score with your swing" wasn't going to be successful. Things are on a better path, now that I've taken instruction to heart. 

I don't begrudge anyone else for whom the "score with what you got/no need for perfect swing" philosophy. If that works for someone else, great. I'm a very "live and let live" person. I'm not trying to slam folks who feel that, or say that. Like you say, it's an opinion- no big deal.

My "one size fits all" comment was meant to be two-fold:

1. a good instructor wouldn't try to create a "one size fits all" solutions; and
2. if someone hears the advice that they shouldn't get lessons, that is ironically sorta like "one size fits all" advice. In truth, each person needs to decide for themselves which makes sense, and there are a ton of factors.

 

Its all good ,I should of been more clear,I was mostly referring to the massive mix of shapes, sizes and physical abilities of us all,many of which make learning/replicating a "textbook" swing irrelevant/unachievable,thereby using"what you've got" to get the club on the back of the ball solidly and score well playing the great game regardless.For the record im a big fan of playing lessons!! Good luck

[Blackjack Don]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

P.P.S. The golf course is no place to learn how to change/improve mechanics.

Therein lies the problem. Most amateur golfers don't have time to practice AND play. They might get out on the weekend for a round that takes up much of their day. The rest of their week is busy with life. 

Over the past six months, I've dedicated myself to learning to play. I spend four or five days a week at the range or the course. I play at least once a week, while the rest of the time I'm either trying to develop my swing or practicing chipping and putting. I would imagine very few have this luxury.

So most do try to improve while on the course, with a dozen thoughts going through their heads while on the tee, approach or the green. It's not going to work, but what else can they do? I feel for them, the frustration they must be feeling. The weekend guy loves golf just as much as anyone and wants to improve, but how many really realize how much time and effort it takes to shave a few strokes off their score?

It's a hard game at which to improve, taking time away from playing it. That's the paradox. I don't see any way to overcome it. From the evidence, nobody else knows, either.

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Therein lies the problem. Most amateur golfers don't have time to practice AND play. They might get out on the weekend for a round that takes up much of their day. The rest of their week is busy with life. 

I disagree. Most amateur golfers do not know how to optimize their practice time or what to even practice on. They think they need to spend 2+ hours hitting hundreds of golf balls in succession. They could easily spend 1 hour a few times a week if they knew how to practice and what to practice on. 

4 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

So most do try to improve while on the course, with a dozen thoughts going through their heads while on the tee, approach or the green. It's not going to work, but what else can they do? I feel for them, the frustration they must be feeling. The weekend guy loves golf just as much as anyone and wants to improve, but how many really realize how much time and effort it takes to shave a few strokes off their score?

Actually I think most amateurs don't even do that. I've played golf with many high handicappers and none of them practiced while playing. 

7 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

It's a hard game at which to improve, taking time away from playing it. That's the paradox. I don't see any way to overcome it. From the evidence, nobody else knows, either.

With a few lessons a year, and knowing how to properly practice, I think a lot of amateurs could shoot in the mid to low 80's consistently. Golf is hard, but most amateurs make it much harder on themselves. 

[nevets88]

8 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Actually I think most amateurs don't even do that. I've played golf with many high handicappers and none of them practiced while playing. 

With slow play, I go off to the side a lot and work on my short game, it's amazing how many people don't do this, rules/space permitting. 9 holes, wait 3-5 minutes a hole, that's 30 minutes of short game practice. 

[Blackjack Don]

Along with the exercise from dodging balls from the group behind you as frustrated as I am when I have to wait every single flipping hole. I can just see a guy hitting four or five balls from the sand while he waits for the group in front of him to leave the tee and hit their second balls. Unfortunately, the people behind can't see it. Just that some guy is holding them up while he putts on the green from everywhere. lol

Bombs away!

[Lihu]

You pretty much need both a playing lesson and range time with feedback.

 

1 hour ago, thefinlex said:

Enjoying the chat but keeping my opinions about short game and course management

Seems like you need to play the course to really practice game management and to a certain extent short game.

You can practice full swing and using a mirror and no balls.

So, I wouldn't exclude one for the other.

 

58 minutes ago, thefinlex said:

Holing putts wins matches and turns the tide.a massive drive into the bushes can only be saved by scrambling and then holing your putt and still getting to write 4 on your card instead of 6......or do you hole all your drives?

Okay im giving up,maybe its cultural..who knows..im off to practice my scrambling putting and holing out guys...enjoy the range im out

Might be, but what are your chances of making 1 putts from 20 feet instead of 2 putts from 30 or 40 feet or so? It's more stressful having to save par from 20 feet or so? Plus, making the green with a full shot is way more gratifying.

 

4 minutes ago, thefinlex said:

The pros I mention ,to me at least ,illustrate why driving is trumped by finishing ability around the greens and as such I'm on course way more than range putting myself in situations that demand I get it close regardless of how far I hit my drive....play well

The recommended practice on this site is only a little bit more for long game than short game anyway.

[iacas]

I moved some of the posts from this topic to a new topic:

I can always merge them back, but I like this topic - Playing Lessons vs. Range Time - and didn't want to get too far off topic in it.

@thefinlex, some of the responses and your posts are in that topic now.

[Golfingdad]

2 hours ago, GolfLug said:

One cannot overstate the importance of this for the average weekender like me with a day job and kids. I play 3 rounds a month at the most in summer. 4 if I really gotten on top of my honey-do. Will be happy to hit 35 rounds again for the entire year. The little 5/10 minutes everyday in my living room or back yard matters. Do whatever you can to get your hands on that club even for a few, pick your priority and stick with it. Eventually the fog lifts. It absolutely does. You can be 7-8 shots better in a year if you are a high handicapper (19) like I was 2 years ago.

I am not going to lie.. You do have to go to range and play to tie it in to actual play as often as you can, but as you mention you take what life will allow you. Don't coast on all-or-nothing. Get going already!

I'm going to almost plagiarize you here:  As you know, I also have a day job and kids (3) and have been fortunate enough to play more often in the last 5 years since picking the game back up then I ever came close to playing when I was younger and single.  Last year I played 33 rounds, and the previous 4 years it was close to the same.  Yet 5 years ago, I was a ~10 handicap, and now I'm threatening to get under 4.

I practice at the range as often as I can, which right now is once a week or so, and then do little things in my living room in the evenings occasionally when I'm watching tv or something.  I'll practice putting in my backyard occasionally as well.  I'm not playing or practicing as much as I wish I could, but I'm making the most of the time I do get. :)

(One day, one or more of the kids will start wanting to golf all of the time and then it'll be off to the races!)