The Four Stages of Competence

[JonMA1]

On 12/28/2016 at 0:33 PM, iacas said:

We see this golfer on TST all the time, and it's something that plagues a lot of golfers on the Internet. This golfer seeks out a ton of information. They read a lot, watch a lot of videos, and absorb a ton. They can tell you fifteen things wrong with their swing. They can point out the various quirks of different Tour players, and are often dogmatic about what makes a good golf swing. They seem to "know" a lot of stuff… So the question: what zone are they in?

Unconscious Incompetence.

On 12/28/2016 at 0:33 PM, iacas said:

Why?

Because they don't know exactly what their weakness/priority is. If they did, they wouldn't be searching, thinking or discussing anything else.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

Unconscious Incompetence.

Because they don't know exactly what their weakness/priority is. If they did, they wouldn't be searching, thinking or discussing anything else.

Yeah. As I think I said, I'm between this one and con-incomp. They KNOW the things, but they don't necessarily know which one to start with. So it's kind of a mix of both.

[RandallT]

Don't suppose there might be a list somewhere regarding proven techniques to get from conscious to unconscious competence with a specific skill. 

I'd imagine most of us have a piece we feel like we can do in slow motion or at the range when we think about it- but breaks down at high speed on the course.

Is it as simple as sticking with 5 S's practice methodology? 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, RandallT said:

Is it as simple as sticking with 5 S's practice methodology? 

Pretty much. There really aren't any shortcuts.

[Marty2019]

I don't know if you were thinking of me when you wrote this, but it seems be aimed straight at me, and justifiably so. 

My experience has led me to totally agree with all this.  One swing change at a time, totally ingrained and automatic, without thinking about it, before moving to the next one. 

In my case, I need to take more control of the lesson package I bought and slow it down with more time between lessons. 

[GolfLug]

I think there are good answers about the question already posted (What zone: it's easily #1, Why: Actual complexity of a golf swing paired with illusion of simplicity) so I will take the opportunity to do some self analysis.

If I am allowed to just very slightly tweak the definition of 'conscious' from 'knowing' to 'mindful', I think a largely bounce between #1 and #3. I know my priority so either I am mindful of it or I am not. Meaning I feel like I have skipped #2 or passed it very quickly. The bouncing is not from round to round either, it could be a few holes of #3 and few holes of #1. I honestly think when I maintain focus on my priority, I have a fairly consistent shot shape.

On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 11:07 PM, RandallT said:

Don't suppose there might be a list somewhere regarding proven techniques to get from conscious to unconscious competence with a specific skill. 

Volume. Copious amount of competent (#3) volume. I don't expect it to get there any time soon. I think can live with #3 comfortably for a very long time.

On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 11:07 PM, RandallT said:

I'd imagine most of us have a piece we feel like we can do in slow motion or at the range when we think about it- but breaks down at high speed on the course.

In my experience, you have to be able to cling on dearly with your life to your priority (the 'mindfulness' thing again) on every swing on the course just like range practice and just have brutal disregard for result/scores through it. Of course it is one method that I have learned from @iacasbut have developed more and more faith in it with help. It also makes swallowing bad scores and horrible shots easier.

[nevets88]

2 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

I don't know if you were thinking of me when you wrote this, but it seems be aimed straight at me, and justifiably so. 

My experience has led me to totally agree with all this.  One swing change at a time, totally ingrained and automatic, without thinking about it, before moving to the next one. 

In my case, I need to take more control of the lesson package I bought and slow it down with more time between lessons. 

LOL, I was thinking, oi, that's me as well. 

I think anyone with common sense after reading all that's out there now, their, yeah, that doesn't apply to me radar gets better, but then you have these threads where everyone is bandwagoning on one magical tip. What is it when everyone goes viral gets together in the public to do something? Flash mob. It's like Flash mob tip.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

I don't know if you were thinking of me when you wrote this, but it seems be aimed straight at me, and justifiably so.

I think it may have been you that prompted it, but almost nothing I ever write is an example of "oh, I thought this one time, so let me write about it." More a matter of "okay, with that many examples, it's time to write about it."

I see this all the time from the lessons I give. People want to come back a week later… and I have to tell them that basically they're likely gonna get the same lesson if they do that.

Because I care about their development, their time and mine, and their money.

[JonMA1]

I think it's possible to be fully aware of a priority, 100% devoted to improving it, and still be in the dark because we don't know how to fix it.

 

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I think it's possible to be fully aware of a priority, 100% devoted to improving it, and still be in the dark because we don't know how to fix it.

Then you're still consciously incompetent. You know what to fix, but you can't and you're incapable of doing it better ("competently").

[Denny Bang Bang]

I'd be curious to see a follow up thread related to this, where members take an honest look at there own game, and put themselves into these competency categories by each area of their game.

 

[saevel25]

So if you are in a constant stage of working on priority piece(s) then you'd be in fluctuating between 3 & 4? Maybe hit #2 if some unknown fault shows up?

[Double Mocha Man]

That is my golf goal/New Year's resolution this season... working on "unconscious competence".  I began about 2 months ago... mostly on the range.  I am very analytical about setting up.  Stance, weight distribution, spine angle, position of hands, etc.  I used to employ one or two swing keys during my swing.  Ugggh.  Now, once I'm set I let my mind go blank... I let what athletic talent I have take over.  If the set-up is good everything else follows... without thinking.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Double Mocha Man
spelling

[iacas]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

So if you are in a constant stage of working on priority piece(s) then you'd be in fluctuating between 3 & 4? Maybe hit #2 if some unknown fault shows up?

Pretty much. Golfers who are maintaining or improving their games are often hanging out between #3 and #4.

And you'd likely be #1 and then hopefully #2 and then back to #3 if it was an unknown fault.

[Lihu]

On 12/28/2016 at 9:33 AM, iacas said:

I'll conclude with a question for all of you.

We see this golfer on TST all the time, and it's something that plagues a lot of golfers on the Internet. This golfer seeks out a ton of information. They read a lot, watch a lot of videos, and absorb a ton. They can tell you fifteen things wrong with their swing. They can point out the various quirks of different Tour players, and are often dogmatic about what makes a good golf swing. They seem to "know" a lot of stuff… So the question: what zone are they in?

Why?

From my experience, golf swing looks really deceptively simple to learn. Most people think they should be able to learn through videos, and think they know the fifteen things that they are doing wrong, but really don't.

I think it's the unconscious incompetent to conscious incompetent phases for most of the people shooting in the 90s.

For my own skill level, I think I am possibly between conscious incompetent to conscious competent leaning either way on any given shot? Honestly, the only thing that seems to have changed between my swing from a year ago and now is the path the club takes. Not much else has really changed, but I feel like my hips are clearing better and for sure I gained some carry yardage.

 

On 12/28/2016 at 9:46 AM, saevel25 said:

It probably has to do with that we are going from being book smart to applying the knowledge in a applicable way. 

There are many cases where reading how to do something isn't the same as doing it. People will probably mess up on their first attempts. 

There is probably a disconnect between  relating written instruction to actual motor function. That goes into that feel isn't real. 

You can tell someone how to ride a bike. Can you tell someone how to balance? 

I think this is a good reason for many people. However, I think most people only think they know what they want to look like by watching a pro swing the club. When they film themselves many think they are emulating that swing, but generally don't.

 

On 12/28/2016 at 0:12 PM, Phil McGleno said:

I would guess they are consciously incompetent-They know things but do not know how to do them at any speed at all.

And they probably never will because they are trying to do ten things at once.

What can you say to someone trying to fix ten different things to get them to change one at a time? It seems like most people, think "Aha, I got it" then try to fix something else. . .

[Double Mocha Man]

I've utilized 2,336 different swing keys over the course of my golf life.  I was always hoping to hit the grand prize when 3 of them came perfectly together and voila!  Never happened... don't do it anymore.

[JonMA1]

On 1/1/2017 at 7:22 PM, Lihu said:

I think it's the unconscious incompetent to conscious incompetent phases for most of the people shooting in the 90s.

Seems reasonable for 90's golfers - it's true for me. The incompetent part is apparent. The conscious/unconscious it a bit tougher to say. There are so many problems that even I can see some of them, but that doesn't mean I can recognize a priority or root cause.  

On 1/1/2017 at 7:22 PM, Lihu said:

When they film themselves many think they are emulating that swing, but generally don't.

Yep, that's exactly what I think of when viewing my swing video... tour pro! 

[Lihu]

7 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

Seems reasonable for 90's golfers - it's true for me. The incompetent part is apparent. The conscious/unconscious it a bit tougher to say. There are so many problems that even I can see some of them, but that doesn't mean I can recognize a priority or root cause.  

Only really good instructors can do this, but the bottom line is getting more distance and accuracy with our strikes. Once we think get to the maximum distance and accuracy we can get, it seems like there is always something to improve. . .

Here's a little background of my range. Most of the people I talk to on the range are in the conscious incompetent to conscious competent phase of development. I don't talk to the other ones because they are generally more stubborn.

These people are usually in the conscious competent and in the mid to high single digit range with one or two in the low singles. If you listen to them, there is always something to learn from them. They generally know what you are doing wrong, and most of the time what they are doing wrong themselves and work on specific things to fix flaws. Plus, they are able to help each other, but only because the people they help are also in the conscious phase of development and more or less know how to interpret advice with or without immediate feedback.

Here's an example of a "conscious fix" I did today.

Well, one of these long time "range buddy people" is now a new instructor, and he was "working" with me while noting a few of possibly many flaws in my swing even asking if I take videos of my swing. While I think video is good, as you can take the different parts of your swing and relate in a very concrete way to some flaw you see on the video clip. Yet, I feel like that takes quite a bit of understanding of what is exactly going on. That's kind of where being conscious competent comes into play, but even if I could properly interpret the video I don't get to see my ball flight.

My self made priority for now is not getting more distance so much as more accuracy with my driver. So, seeing the swing is all good and all, but the ball flight is more important to me right now. Sure, this might possibly be a misconception, but that's not the point.

Let's say my end goal is to get a driver push-draw flight with my current swing, which seems to have a more predictable flight for me.

So, we worked on the setup and path a little bit, but more so timing the impact "snap" at the right time. We worked on different "snap" timings to get me to get that desired flight. eventually it turned out that I was basically pronating my wrists a bit more consciously to get better face closure at impact. Once we got the "right" timing, I got my push-draw flight (very light push and very little draw). We were able to do this because I somewhat understood what he was suggesting and was able to get my body parts to mostly do what was suggested. So, the outcome was pretty much what we wanted. Obviously, at least some of what we did was a conscious interaction, whether it was "correct" or not isn't the issue. The fact is he was mostly conscious of what he was seeing in my swing and I was somewhat conscious of what he was suggesting.

It didn't take long to figure out what to do because it was one change to my swing and one simple setup change. I understand it, but of course it will take time to really "get it". Not 100% sure it's correct either. However, I should mention that the head pro I talked to two weeks ago, mentioned that same type of action to me. Well, at the time, I asked if it was a "band aide", and got a kind of answer of "yes". Yet, I really didn't know at the time that he was letting me know that I probably should have been doing that. , but it took a "kick" from one of my "range buddies" to get me to do it and get a good flight.

Whether this is a "good and permanent" fix remains to be seen, but it's still a somewhat conscious change even if ultimately wrong.

On another note, if I were more serious about trying to improve, now might be the time for me to see a good instructor rather than simply getting "range buddies" to help me. But my purpose is to have fun and theirs is too. . .

 

Quote

Yep, that's exactly what I think of when viewing my swing video... tour pro! 

All of us non-experts kind of kid ourselves on how good are our swings on video. that's where having an expert view them comes into play.