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It's All About the Ball - and Ego


Blackjack Don
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I'm not so concerned with how far the pros hit vs myself. We already have, somewhat, of an equalizer. Different tee choices and handicaps. I'll never play a 7000 yard course.....it would be a bloodbath. 

driving accuracy stats would be interesting to see though. I see plenty of bombs by the pros that land in great areas.....I also see a fair amount that bleed off right or left into the s**t. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 1/6/2017 at 0:12 PM, DaveP043 said:

They have already instituted changes that limit distance, both for balls and for clubheads.  What they haven't done is to roll back some of the increases that occurred prior to the distance limiting rules.  I'd agree that there shouldn't be separate requirements for a small group of golfers (tour players) as compared with the rest of golfers.  But I'd still bet that big hitters will always have some advantage over shorter hitters, even with more severe distance limitations in place.

I get what Dave is saying...if the ball is simply rolled back distance-wise, the guy who is 30 yards shorter than the big hitters will still be 30 yards shorter, so the longer hitters will still have an advantage.  But, once upon a time distance was not such a huge factor and there were plenty of guys who were not among the longest hitters winning on a regular basis.  When did this change?

The big change happened when solid core golf balls were introduced, so roughly 1999.  The reason was that although everyone gained distance with the new balls, the guys with higher swing speeds gained more distance than players with below average swing speeds (average driver clubhead speed on Tour is about 113 mph).  So even though the shorter hitters picked up 10-15 yards, the big hitters gained 25.  This created a bigger separation and this is when short hitters found it more difficult to compete with the big hitters and the focus shifted more heavily on hitting the ball long.

The new balls didn't spin nearly as much off the driver either, so they were much straighter.  Clubheads had already started getting bigger and more forgiving, so hitting precise shots was not as important.  This created a new generation of players who could swing as hard as possible and not get hurt by hitting marginal shots.  Spin was the great equalizer!  Back in the day, even power players had to hit the ball well to play, so you still had guys who were long (Andy Bean, Fred Couples, Davis Love III) but still had to swing within themselves.

Here is a good example of how much the new ball changed things...In 1981 Dan Pohl was the longest driver on Tour with a 280.1 yard average.  13 years later in 1994, Davis Love III led the Tour in driving distance averaging 283.8 yards (just over 3.5 yards difference). Just 9 years after that in 2003 Hank Kuehne was at 321.4.  That's 37.6 yards longer!  Pretty impressive. Not to take anything away from Hank, but if he had to play with a persimmon driver and a wound ball there is a good chance he would have never gotten his Tour card.  Players could not swing as hard as they do now simply because it was imperative to hit the sweet spot and to control the spin.  Before anyone brings up Bubba Watson and tries to point out that he is long and works the ball like they used to back in the day, let me stop you. If Bubba had to play with traditional gear, he might not break 80.  I understand he is a multiple major winner, but I'm telling you, he doesn't hit the ball precisely enough to have even been a pro, much less win majors.

Check this out:  In 2010, Bubba and Corey Pavin were in a sudden death playoff along with Scott Verplank.  Their stats for the week:

Pavin's Stats: 
Driving Distance 262.0
Driving Accuracy 89%
GIR 74%
Putts Per GIR 1.643
Sand Save Percentage 1-1- 100%

B. Watson Stats:
Driving Distance 321
Driving Accuracy 66%
GIR 71%
Putts Per GIR 1.63
Sand Save Percentage 3-4 75%

Bubba was hitting the ball 60 yards longer than Pavin, but hit less greens and more bunkers.  The first playoff hole, Corey hit a hybrid into the green, Bubba hit sand wedge.  If Bubba hit less fairways, less greens and more bunkers with today's drivers and balls with Corey spotting him 60 yards, he would have no chance with a ball that spun twice as much.

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I never worried about what equipment the pros played. Some was, and some wasn't available to us amateurs. (See below) 

I would never agree that there should be a different set of rules for the pros, and the amateurs. I like the fact our games are different under the same set of rules. Only rule change I'd like to would be a 15 club limit. 

Several years ago, I found a golf ball in my back yard. The only markings on it was just the Nike "Swoosh" emblem.  I played it, and it was a damn fine ball. Better distance, and control on the green. Just couldn't find it in stores. Turned out it was a prototype, and not available to the public. Go figure....

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2 hours ago, Patch said:

I never worried about what equipment the pros played. Some was, and some wasn't available to us amateurs. (See below) 

I would never agree that there should be a different set of rules for the pros, and the amateurs. I like the fact our games are different under the same set of rules. Only rule change I'd like to would be a 15 club limit. 

Several years ago, I found a golf ball in my back yard. The only markings on it was just the Nike "Swoosh" emblem.  I played it, and it was a damn fine ball. Better distance, and control on the green. Just couldn't find it in stores. Turned out it was a prototype, and not available to the public. Go figure....

Just out of curiosity Patch, what are your feelings about high school or collegiate sports that have different rules than at the professional level?  Like aluminum baseball bats are allowed for h.s. and college players, but not in the major league, or the different distances for the 3-point line in h.s vs. college vs. NBA?  I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering if you feel all sports should be played by 1 set of rules or just golf.

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12 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

Just out of curiosity Patch, what are your feelings about high school or collegiate sports that have different rules than at the professional level?  Like aluminum baseball bats are allowed for h.s. and college players, but not in the major league, or the different distances for the 3-point line in h.s vs. college vs. NBA?  I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering if you feel all sports should be played by 1 set of rules or just golf.

This is a good point.

For the same reasons there are different rules for HS/collegiate and professional team sports like the ones you mentioned, the handicapped golfer also could use a little bit of a "boost". Perhaps "championship flights or A players" would use professional rules, but the rest of us use a different set of more lenient equipment rules and such?

I suddenly found a liking for "Winter Rules" at our courses. Lift and clean is the one I'm talking about. Preferred lies is also one of them. I tried playing one ball with and one ball without, today, and the results were about 2 strokes per 9 holes. That's significant!

Quote

Adverse conditions, including the poor condition of the course or the existence of mud, are sometimes so general, particularly during winter months, that the Committee may decide to grant relief by temporary Local Rule either to protect the course or to promote fair and pleasant play. The Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as the conditions warrant.

 

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4 minutes ago, Lihu said:

This is a good point.

For the same reasons there are different rules for HS/collegiate and professional team sports like the ones you mentioned, the handicapped golfer also could use a little bit of a "boost". Perhaps "championship flights or A players" would use professional rules, but the rest of us use a different set of more lenient equipment rules and such?

I suddenly found a liking for "Winter Rules" at our courses. Lift and clean is the one I'm talking about. Preferred lies is also one of them. I tried playing one ball with and one ball without, today, and the results were about 2 strokes per 9 holes. That's significant!

 

This brings up a good point.  If this has been discussed elsewhere I apologize. I think most of us here consider the traditions of the game important and would have a hard time supporting a significant change in the rules or the way the game is played.

For example:I'm guessing most would be against the idea of enlarging the size of the hole, because it wouldn't be...golf, you know what I mean?  Personally, if the hole was made an inch or two bigger and I shot 65, I would not be excited about it. Even if that was the new official rule that was put into effect, it wouldn't be the same to me.  I wouldn't call my buddies and brag about it and I would wonder what I would have shot with "real" holes.  

But, I have played a lot of golf with a lot of people, and unless it's a tournament, I see very few people who actually play by the rules.  They take mulligans, don't count penalty shots, improve their lie, take illegal drops and I've even seen some club hoes with 2 bags of clubs strapped to their cart...22+ clubs! Except for that last one, I think it's pretty common and we've all done it or see it every time we play.  It doesn't bother me and the only time I would have a problem with it is if it's a tournament or we're gambling.  And it's not like anyone is trying to be sneaky about it...either they don't know they are breaking a rule, or that's just the way they always play and don't think anything of it.

My point is golf is hard.  It's frustrating. It's maddening.  That's why a lot of us love it.  But to grow the game and encourage new players, should a more "friendly" set of rules be considered?  I mean, there is a reason why so many players don't play by the rules now...either it's because they don't know them, or because nobody wants to pay for green fees and spend 6 hours to shoot 115.  Even though that is what they really shot, a scorecard that says 95 makes them feel better and want to do it again the next day.  

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20 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

 

My point is golf is hard.  It's frustrating. It's maddening.  That's why a lot of us love it.  But to grow the game and encourage new players, should a more "friendly" set of rules be considered?  I mean, there is a reason why so many players don't play by the rules now...either it's because they don't know them, or because nobody wants to pay for green fees and spend 6 hours to shoot 115.  Even though that is what they really shot, a scorecard that says 95 makes them feel better and want to do it again the next day.  

We're veering a bit off topic here, and there are several threads that talk about this very topic, but I'm always a bit amused when someone recommends a change in the rules as a remedy for those who haven't bothered to learn the current rules, or simply choose not to play by them.  As if a different set of rules would somehow change either circumstance...

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Uhhhh-I do not agree with anything in the first post.

Golf balls all go about the same distance depending on the player and launch conditions.

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3 hours ago, 1badbadger said:

Just out of curiosity Patch, what are your feelings about high school or collegiate sports that have different rules than at the professional level?  Like aluminum baseball bats are allowed for h.s. and college players, but not in the major league, or the different distances for the 3-point line in h.s vs. college vs. NBA?  I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering if you feel all sports should be played by 1 set of rules or just golf.

I had a big long post going and lost it.

The game of golf has only one set of rules per continent. The equipment used is well defined as far as legal, or illegal.

The other sports you mentioned are dealing more with different age groups, physical sizes, and skill levels. Sure, golf has players of all ages, sizes, and skill levels too. Golf also has one set of rules, and one playing field with differences in length. Difference is baseball has tee ball. Football has different leagues based on age groups, and it's the same  for basketball. These sports cater to the needs of their players based on their age groups, and skill levels. This also includes the playing fields, and equipment they use. So in that respect I have no problem with what other sports are doing. 

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On 1/6/2017 at 0:53 PM, Blackjack Don said:

Couldn't the PGA Tour decide this? Same rules for all who play in the tournament?

They kind of did this in bowling.  Granted, it's just one tournament a year, but it's a similar concept.  Rather than the players using their current modern equipment, all players had to use bowling balls that are similar to a "house ball".  These are low-tech balls that were used in the '70s and '80s and still made for beginners or for shooting spares.  Each player was issued 2 balls at the start of the tournament, all made by the same company.  It would not only be like rolling the golf ball back, but having the field play with the same make/model.  It was a great idea I thought.  I don't think anyone would want all tournaments to do it, but for 1 week each year it was a cool change of pace. 

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On 1/6/2017 at 11:02 AM, Blackjack Don said:

But being the best putter--A. is a woosy thing, and B. evokes an image of the feminine--women can putt as well as men.

A common stereotype. On professional tours, this doesn't hold up. Male tour pros have a slight edge over Women In Putting, but the story doesn't say if the fractional difference is statistically significant.

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2 hours ago, WUTiger said:

A common stereotype. On professional tours, this doesn't hold up. Male tour pros have a slight edge over Women In Putting, but the story doesn't say if the fractional difference is statistically significant.

While I agree with the statistics, I have no idea why this might be the case? Interesting. . .

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14 hours ago, Phil McGleno said:

Uhhhh-I do not agree with anything in the first post.

Golf balls all go about the same distance depending on the player and launch conditions.

I was waiting for that  . . and where did we get the idea that a 20 handicap *can't* play a ProV1x?  It may not be the optimum ball for a given player (Regardless of index) - but it's certainly not going to result in a 150 yard drive vs a 250 yard drive as mentioned in the OP.  I'm sure there's a difference between balls but I hit everything I can find and I couldn't tell you how much farther I hit a Precept Laddie vs a "distance ball" vs a ProV1x ...it's not a big enough difference to be able to detect over just variances in my swing. 

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10 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

I was waiting for that  . . and where did we get the idea that a 20 handicap *can't* play a ProV1x?  It may not be the optimum ball for a given player (Regardless of index) - but it's certainly not going to result in a 150 yard drive vs a 250 yard drive as mentioned in the OP.  I'm sure there's a difference between balls but I hit everything I can find and I couldn't tell you how much farther I hit a Precept Laddie vs a "distance ball" vs a ProV1x ...it's not a big enough difference to be able to detect over just variances in my swing. 

Sure, a 20 handicapper can play a Pro V1x, and I've seen many do it.  But I've never seen one who didn't have noticeably better results with a different model.  It's not always about swing speed either...there are plenty of 20+ handicappers who have pretty high clubhead speeds.  It's about controlling the spin.  Players who can control their distance with trajectory, or who are able to fade or draw the ball as needed and who can play a bump and run or a shot that hits once and checks are who golf balls like that are made for.  Can a 16 year old drive a Ferrari?  Sure.  Can he control it?  Probably not.  And if going 30 mph is the only way he can drive it to keep it on the road, then there is a whole lot of performance that was paid for and not being used.

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16 hours ago, 1badbadger said:

This brings up a good point.  If this has been discussed elsewhere I apologize. I think most of us here consider the traditions of the game important and would have a hard time supporting a significant change in the rules or the way the game is played.

For example:I'm guessing most would be against the idea of enlarging the size of the hole, because it wouldn't be...golf, you know what I mean?  Personally, if the hole was made an inch or two bigger and I shot 65, I would not be excited about it. Even if that was the new official rule that was put into effect, it wouldn't be the same to me.  I wouldn't call my buddies and brag about it and I would wonder what I would have shot with "real" holes.  

But, I have played a lot of golf with a lot of people, and unless it's a tournament, I see very few people who actually play by the rules.  They take mulligans, don't count penalty shots, improve their lie, take illegal drops and I've even seen some club hoes with 2 bags of clubs strapped to their cart...22+ clubs! Except for that last one, I think it's pretty common and we've all done it or see it every time we play.  It doesn't bother me and the only time I would have a problem with it is if it's a tournament or we're gambling.  And it's not like anyone is trying to be sneaky about it...either they don't know they are breaking a rule, or that's just the way they always play and don't think anything of it.

My point is golf is hard.  It's frustrating. It's maddening.  That's why a lot of us love it.  But to grow the game and encourage new players, should a more "friendly" set of rules be considered?  I mean, there is a reason why so many players don't play by the rules now...either it's because they don't know them, or because nobody wants to pay for green fees and spend 6 hours to shoot 115.  Even though that is what they really shot, a scorecard that says 95 makes them feel better and want to do it again the next day.  

 

16 hours ago, David in FL said:

We're veering a bit off topic here, and there are several threads that talk about this very topic, but I'm always a bit amused when someone recommends a change in the rules as a remedy for those who haven't bothered to learn the current rules, or simply choose not to play by them.  As if a different set of rules would somehow change either circumstance...

I mentioned that if this had been discussed elsewhere I apologize to avoid this.

 Anyway, I hope you're not saying that I suggested changing the rules for players who are too lazy to learn them or who don't feel like following them.  I'll assume you're amused by others who have had that idea at some point and it wasn't directed at me.  My question for debate was if making the rules/game easier to help grow the game would help. I used enlarging the size of the hole as an example, which doesn't apply to someone who doesn't play by the current rules. If you feel it's off topic that's cool...we don't have to discuss it.

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