More realistic scoring for amateurs

[WUTiger]

On 1/20/2017 at 0:57 PM, ev780 said:

Par is defined (I am paraphrasing out of laziness) The number of shots an EXPERT golfer requires allowing for 2 putts.

An popular definition of par from times past was "the number of strokes allowed for flawless play of a hole."

I tried to find the source of this definition, but only came up with various sportswriters talking about some golfer's flawless play in a tournament.

A local guy who plays on the mini-tour said you learn to be cautious about par. He told this story about an early spring tournament: A long par 4 with tight greenside bunkering was playing into a stiff wind on opening day. He's not a super-long hitter, so he played a low drive and a knockdown 4i as an approach with the idea of coming up near the green and chipping on. He did so, and got a 5. For the day, double and triple bogies outnumbered pars on the hole, so he probably gained a half a stroke on the field.

[Lihu]

22 minutes ago, WUTiger said:

An popular definition of par from times past was "the number of strokes allowed for flawless play of a hole."

I tried to find the source of this definition, but only came up with various sportswriters talking about some golfer's flawless play in a tournament.

A local guy who plays on the mini-tour said you learn to be cautious about par. He told this story about an early spring tournament: A long par 4 with tight greenside bunkering was playing into a stiff wind on opening day. He's not a super-long hitter, so he played a low drive and a knockdown 4i as an approach with the idea of coming up near the green and chipping on. He did so, and got a 5. For the day, double and triple bogies outnumbered pars on the hole, so he probably gained a half a stroke on the field.

In the definitions section 2:

Quote

Par "Par" is the score that an expert player would be expected to make for a given hole. Par means expert play under ordinary weather conditions, allowing two strokes on the putting green. Par is not a significant factor in either the USGA Handicap System or USGA Course Rating System.

 

[Hacker James]

One man's par is another's aspiration.

[JonMA1]

6 hours ago, Hacker James said:

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you Don. People have stated that if it suits you, you find enjoyment in it, and derive a benefit, then by all means do it. Others have simply stated, it is not for them. I sometimes will play a practice round "best ball" when there is nobody behind me,

Exactly. No one gets to tell anyone else how they should enjoy or define golf.  

Modifying the game to bring more enjoyment is nothing new. It's no different than playing from a mix of tees, playing 2 ball, taking a drop instead of walking back to the tees, using mulligans, playing a scramble... it's all been done before. They're called practice rounds. They can be fun, and they can frustrating. Practice rounds are a nice break, but that's all they are.

Practicing from 200 yards would do nothing more and nothing less than any other type of practice round. If I'm hitting the ball well, a practice round is fun. If I'm not.... I'm either working out a problem or I'm frustrated as hell. The frustration is every bit as likely to happen from 200 yards out as it might from 480.

There's practice, and then there is real golf - which to me is playing by the rules from tees that test my ability while still offering the possibility of enjoyment. My definition of "real" may differ from those who would never think about playing from under 6,000 yds as I do. Doesn't matter. Any level of success is an accomplishment... a "high" that's hard to get from a practice round.

I just don't understand the idea that enjoyment from this type of golf is reserved for better players. Plus, the idea of playing from 200 yards just seems boring as hell. Give me the variety of a 135 yd par 3, followed by a 480 yard par 5 and a 330 yard par 4 any day of the week.

To each their own.

[CarlSpackler]

26 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

Exactly. No one gets to tell anyone else how they should enjoy or define golf.  

Unless of course you turn around and start telling everyone that you shoot 2 to 3 over on a regular basis. 

[JonMA1]

3 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

Unless of course you turn around and start telling everyone that you shoot 2 to 3 over on a regular basis. 

Start doing that and I think people just leave you alone.

[Blackjack Don]

Honestly--and not because I want to be right, but to get it right--the more I mess around with this, the more I think the guy who thought it up has a good idea. You guys are much better than I am. I suck. My driver and 3 wood are not good at all. When I hit off the tees, your guess is as good as mine where the ball is going to land. Most of the time, it's not in good shape. So the rest of the hole becomes a grind. Now, if your pleasure is playing golf exactly the way the pros do it, and you enjoy the challenge, then go and have a good time, by all means. But for the vast majority of us, it's not fun. One or two good holes per round doesn't make up for the terrible holes. I have a rule: If I lose two balls on one hole, I don't play it. 

Since I think I'm not that far from most people I see out on the course, then something else can work for me. Play 200 is playing golf. Most of us struggle to get pars on 3s when we can hit to the green the tee. For most of us--the average golfer who struggles to break 100--4 is a good result on par 3s. Five is a good result on any other hole. Even starting from 200. 

Play 200 just eliminates the tee shot. The rest is golf. I spend hours each week on the range, and nobody there hits good, consistent drives. I guess the guys with the good drivers don't practice. I think the rest of us would be better off eliminating the tee shot altogether. I know it would speed the pace of play. A lot. And would not change the way the amateur sees golf, because it is golf.

Again, I'll be happy when somebody else tries. If it's just me, that's fine. I'll keep practicing my driver on the range, not on the course. I'll keep practicing my short game, and keeping score. I'll also keep promoting the idea, because I think it works. Not for everybody, but for the rest of us.

Thanks for the support. I mean it, too. I'm glad I tried it.

Don

[No Mulligans]

@Blackjack Don You can score however you want.  I sometimes don't keep score at all when playing as a single, I just consider it a practice round.  During those rounds I'll sometimes hit several balls on a short pitch or chip or even putts (given I'm not slowing anyone down).  I have a lot of fun doing that.

As @CarlSpackler said, I don't think it's right to tell anyone your score when you aren't playing by the rules.  A score not under the rules is pretty meaningless to anyone but yourself, which is fine.

[Hacker James]

Yes, I should try this.  I think I will begin by moving up a little at a time. Now, if I can just get the conviction to get off these blue or white tees...  I should add @Blackjack Don that I am not poking fun at you, but more like my own hesistancy.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Hacker James

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Honestly--and not because I want to be right, but to get it right--the more I mess around with this, the more I think the guy who thought it up has a good idea. You guys are much better than I am. I suck. My driver and 3 wood are not good at all. When I hit off the tees, your guess is as good as mine where the ball is going to land. Most of the time, it's not in good shape. So the rest of the hole becomes a grind. Now, if your pleasure is playing golf exactly the way the pros do it, and you enjoy the challenge, then go and have a good time, by all means. But for the vast majority of us, it's not fun. One or two good holes per round doesn't make up for the terrible holes. I have a rule: If I lose two balls on one hole, I don't play it. 

Since I think I'm not that far from most people I see out on the course, then something else can work for me. Play 200 is playing golf. Most of us struggle to get pars on 3s when we can hit to the green the tee. For most of us--the average golfer who struggles to break 100--4 is a good result on par 3s. Five is a good result on any other hole. Even starting from 200. 

Play 200 just eliminates the tee shot. The rest is golf. I spend hours each week on the range, and nobody there hits good, consistent drives. I guess the guys with the good drivers don't practice. I think the rest of us would be better off eliminating the tee shot altogether. I know it would speed the pace of play. A lot. And would not change the way the amateur sees golf, because it is golf.

Again, I'll be happy when somebody else tries. If it's just me, that's fine. I'll keep practicing my driver on the range, not on the course. I'll keep practicing my short game, and keeping score. I'll also keep promoting the idea, because I think it works. Not for everybody, but for the rest of us.

Thanks for the support. I mean it, too. I'm glad I tried it.

Don

Don, I'm happy you've found a way to enjoy golf, and I agree that there are a lot of ways to help players at all levels of ability to enjoy themselves more.  But the bolded part above, saying that "for the vast majority of us, its not fun", is almost certainly inaccurate.  Lots and lots of golfers, at all levels of ability, enjoy playing golf in accordance with the rules.  They're not playing golf the way the pros play, but they ARE playing by the same rules, and having fun doing it.  

Your idea of 200-yard golf probably has a lot of merit for many players, but its not "golf", its a variation on golf.  Many of us do play by something other than the strict rules of golf, and I don't have any problem with any of their choices, but to me the game of golf has very specific rules and meanings.  I hope you continue to enjoy golf, in whatever form you choose to play, and I hope your game improves to the point where you can enjoy the entire game.

[Kalnoky]

The root cause of many similar threads dealing w/ distance off the tee, course length, playing forward, etc. is that people struggle to hit their driver. To my novice eyes, this is probably the most salient difference I see between proficient golfers and the rest of the bunch. A good golfer will effortlessly poke their driver out 210-220, and novices will push two attempts into the opposite fairway at 2/3 the distance. Basically if you cannot hit your driver, the course is just too long, and you have very little chance of scoring. 

 

15 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

But the bolded part above, saying that "for the vast majority of us, its not fun", is almost certainly inaccurate.  Lots and lots of golfers, at all levels of ability, enjoy playing golf in accordance with the rules.  

I could not agree more. I love it the way it is, even though I'm still learning. 

[Hacker James]

6 minutes ago, Kalnoky said:

The root cause of many similar threads dealing w/ distance off the tee, course length, playing forward, etc. is that people struggle to hit their driver. To my novice eyes, this is probably the most salient difference I see between proficient golfers and the rest of the bunch. A good golfer will effortlessly poke their driver out 210-220, and novices will push two attempts into the opposite fairway at 2/3 the distance. Basically if you cannot hit your driver, the course is just too long, and you have very little chance of scoring. 

 

not always. Sometimes I fare much better on longer holes. It may take me an extra stroke, but more often than not, I am in the fairway and can salvage a decent outcome on the putting surface. of course, "decent outcome" for me, might be more generous than others.....

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, Kalnoky said:

The root cause of many similar threads dealing w/ distance off the tee, course length, playing forward, etc. is that people struggle to hit their driver. To my novice eyes, this is probably the most salient difference I see between proficient golfers and the rest of the bunch. A good golfer will effortlessly poke their driver out 210-220, and novices will push two attempts into the opposite fairway at 2/3 the distance. Basically if you cannot hit your driver, the course is just too long, and you have very little chance of scoring. 

And this is exactly why knowledgeable instructors tell us that working on the full swing is Job Number 1 for almost all of us.  Every shot is important, but hitting a tee shot out there at least a moderate distance (driver or fairway wood, whatever works), and in play, is the first step towards success on the golf course

[Blackjack Don]

 

"Golf is shrinking as an industry. More people stop playing golf than start. Golf is too expensive, too hard, and takes too long. The average golfer can't break 100 following the rules of golf." Are any of these statements false? I am thinking of myself as one of the people these facts address. I am one of the masses, many of whom are quitting golf.

What I'm saying is Play 200 is something that would work for these folks, speed up rounds, isn't too hard, and is more fun. Tee shots are hard. For the golfers I represent--perhaps it's stretching the word golfer, but we don't need another word for them--find tee shots really hard, even TOO HARD. Nobody quits playing golf because they can't putt. Yeah, I hit a great tee shot into a sand trap  every time, and since I can't hit a bunker shot, I'm giving up golf. It's just too hard. That's not happening!

So, why would you not recommend to someone who says golf is too hard to Play 200?

10 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

Yes, I should try this.  I think I will begin by moving up a little at a time. Now, if I can just get the conviction to get off these blue or white tees...  I should add @Blackjack Don that I am not poking fun at you, but more like my own hesistancy.

That's all I'm saying, man, and thanks for the support for the idea. If people here try it, and don't see any purpose, then I'll shut up. But if you try it and think it might be a good idea for some, would you recommend it?

I am seeing this as a way to improve golf for everyone. I think it might speed up the game, a lot. Make it easier, too. That would grow the game. So why not?

 

[Blackjack Don]

54 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Your idea of 200-yard golf probably has a lot of merit for many players, but its not "golf", its a variation on golf.  

While I dispute your assertions that most people playing golf by the rules are enjoying it, I assert that most people don't play by the rules. They don't find it fun. But those are opinions without much data to support either one of us.

However, I can refute the assertion that it's not golf. Of course it's golf. If you try it, you'll find out if I'm right or wrong. Easy to prove. Forget about the tee shot. Hit from 200 yards out on any hole over 200 yards. Hit the par 3s like you hit them, when you play golf. You might like it. Or you might say it's not for you, but you'd recommend it to others. If you still think it's not golf, fine, but you'll know for sure. You'll no longer have an opinion. You'll have experience to talk about. That applies to everyone here.

Look, it's not a variation. It's golf. I call it amateur golf. It's golf that lots more people can be good at. It's not Pro golf. If you're a twenty handicap, you're not even close to it. You suck at it. That's just true. If you're twenty plus--maybe even 10 or 15--you're not going to get any better by playing from the blacks, or blues or whites, for that matter. You're not going to get any better at Pro golf unless you have lots and lots of time to invest improving. I can go out and break 90 at 200. Add my driver and I'm toast. I can practice my driver and improve my middle irons with Play 200, ONE DAY A WEEK. Nobody who is a ten handicap is going to improve at "real golf" devoting one day a week. It's even silly to think it.

But everybody can get better at this one day a week, that MOST golfers have to invest. Right? Wouldn't you say that most golfers go out one day a week? Or are we talking about most golfers as professionals and retirees?

There is data for all this, you know.

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I hope your game improves to the point where you can enjoy the entire game.

Me, too. I hope I can someday have confidence with a driver in order to play the whole course. That's my goal. If it never happens, I am not going to quit golf. 

 

47 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

And this is exactly why knowledgeable instructors tell us that working on the full swing is Job Number 1 for almost all of us.  Every shot is important, but hitting a tee shot out there at least a moderate distance (driver or fairway wood, whatever works), and in play, is the first step towards success on the golf course

Okay. Yes. I don't disagree with this at all. I'm taking lessons and practicing my full swing four or five days a week. I've been working at this six months. I'm sixty-one years old. I might get to you guys point in another six months. As a friend pointed out, I'm almost certainly the only guy who was once a Buddhist monk who took up golf. lol I'm not like most people as a unique human being, yet I feel most golfers out there are more like me than not. They are like me because they struggle to hit a driver, and hate it. Most golfers do not follow the rules like most who are on this forum. That is an indisputable fact. It is inarguable. 

This idea is better. Trust me. Try it. I didn't think I'd like it, after two holes. I was pretty skeptical. But it worked. After five or six holes, I was having more fun than I've ever had on a golf course, and far, far less stress. I'm sensitive to stress and negative emotions. I've trained for it. This resolved much of the pain of golf. It worked. If you try it and it doesn't work for you--or anybody you know!--then so be it. No problem. We've learned something.

Enjoy. I'm not going to quit golf, even if I can never find the fairway with a drive.

[jetsknicks1]

On January 20, 2017 at 11:12 PM, JonMA1 said:

Why does bogey seem like a failure? What did you expect when you took up golf? It's a tough game.

As another high capper, a bogey can feel pretty good or pretty crappy, it just depends.

l hit a green in two on a longish par 5 last year. Was the closest opportunity I've ever had at a legitimate eagle. 4-putted for bogey. Even at my level, that was an epic failure and it sucked ass.

But there have been bogey's I've been ok with.

A nice long drive on a par 4 that ends up behind a tree. I punch out, hit the green in 3, and 2 putt to make bogey. I consider that a success.

Agreed, there are good bogies and there are effing bogies, it depends on how you play the hole. If im hacking it thru the trees to get on in 4 and one putt, that's a good bogey. If I'm on in 2 and three put from 20 ft, that's an effing bogey. 

[Hacker James]

20 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

 

"Golf is shrinking as an industry. More people stop playing golf than start. Golf is too expensive, too hard, and takes too long. The average golfer can't break 100 following the rules of golf." Are any of these statements false? I am thinking of myself as one of the people these facts address. I am one of the masses, many of whom are quitting golf.

What I'm saying is Play 200 is something that would work for these folks, speed up rounds, isn't too hard, and is more fun. Tee shots are hard. For the golfers I represent--perhaps it's stretching the word golfer, but we don't need another word for them--find tee shots really hard, even TOO HARD. Nobody quits playing golf because they can't putt. Yeah, I hit a great tee shot into a sand trap  every time, and since I can't hit a bunker shot, I'm giving up golf. It's just too hard. That's not happening!

So, why would you not recommend to someone who says golf is too hard to Play 200?

That's all I'm saying, man, and thanks for the support for the idea. If people here try it, and don't see any purpose, then I'll shut up. But if you try it and think it might be a good idea for some, would you recommend it?

I am seeing this as a way to improve golf for everyone. I think it might speed up the game, a lot. Make it easier, too. That would grow the game. So why not?

 

well, this has been addressed by those who simply say, why not just play executive courses? You also made your point that it was not the same thing. If I understand you correctly, it gives you more enjoyment in going around a typical course with topography, hazards, and use off all your clubs that you might not find on the executive or golf league type courses. Both sides have valid points, in the end, the only thing that matters is YOU.

[Lihu]

35 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

 

"Golf is shrinking as an industry. More people stop playing golf than start. Golf is too expensive, too hard, and takes too long. The average golfer can't break 100 following the rules of golf." Are any of these statements false? I am thinking of myself as one of the people these facts address. I am one of the masses, many of whom are quitting golf.

What I'm saying is Play 200 is something that would work for these folks, speed up rounds, isn't too hard, and is more fun. Tee shots are hard. For the golfers I represent--perhaps it's stretching the word golfer, but we don't need another word for them--find tee shots really hard, even TOO HARD. Nobody quits playing golf because they can't putt. Yeah, I hit a great tee shot into a sand trap  every time, and since I can't hit a bunker shot, I'm giving up golf. It's just too hard. That's not happening!

So, why would you not recommend to someone who says golf is too hard to Play 200?

That's all I'm saying, man, and thanks for the support for the idea. If people here try it, and don't see any purpose, then I'll shut up. But if you try it and think it might be a good idea for some, would you recommend it?

I am seeing this as a way to improve golf for everyone. I think it might speed up the game, a lot. Make it easier, too. That would grow the game. So why not?

Your original post was to set Par at 90, now you are discussing playing at 200.

"Play 200" is almost exactly what people who came up with executive courses something like 100 years ago thought as well. Not everyone can play the full length of the course. The reasons are exactly the same. Less time and standard courses are too frustrating to play because most people don't have the distance off the tee.

Of course, if you don't mind paying for a full length course and just walk up to 200 yards away from the hole, that's up to you, and no one will stop you from doing so. I'm a pretty impatient golfer, and yet If I saw you doing this on the course I would really appreciate that you are doing that.

As far as par 90 is concerned, I don't think this would be too popular with most of the people I play. There are many mid handicappers who would start tearing their hair out if you took 90 strokes to play a course for "par" while actually shooting 30 above that par or something.

Improving your score is most easily done playing par 3 or executive courses and using the driving range to improve your tee shots.

I'm also asserting that most people play by the rules they know and learn. It's a process to learn the rules, but most people follow the ones they already know and ones that they just learned or "just learned".

I do play with ball kickers and foot wedge experts, and sometimes wonder why they do it at all? In one case, there was no reason for him to kick it. The original lie was flat and fluffy just like where he kicked it. I think it was just his habit or something???