Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[cipher]

13 hours ago, mvmac said:

I think for this discussion about the Empire not being as "bad" as it's perceived we have to ignore the content that isn't canon, like the author of the article says.

In original post with the article that Erik linked(which included the statement I was referencing and quoted a couple times which was "I’ve read several things that make a very good case for the Empire as the good guys") the author of the actual article states:

Spoiler

First, an aside: For the sake of this discussion, I've considered only the history gleaned from the actual Star Wars films, not the Expanded Universe. If you know what the Expanded Universe is and want to argue that no discussion of Star Wars can be complete without considering material outside the canon, that's fine. 

I have an issue with the first disclaimer or whatever you want to call it as far at the article remaining relative.  There are the films, there is Expanded Universe, however there is still official canon outside the films.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Canon_policy

So as I best understand this would include the shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars, and Star Wars Rebels and the StarWars.com databank.  I have not spent much time in the databank but have watched much of the shows with my kids.

The information from these official canon sources a is plenty to write a lengthy response to the original article and the others if one wanted.  However it really is not fair to the original article as he did not have that information back in 2002 when the article was written.  If you want to keep the conversation as it seems you guys do to just the movies, then it is just a useless back and forth conversation and I agree there is no point. I am just pointing out in this post that official canon includes sources that now shed a lot more light on the Empire as also not being the good guys so to speak.  If someone wants to consider looking at those sources that is great.  I would be happy over the next couple weeks to do a write up citing this canon(you don't have to be an expert, which I am not either, you just have to look it up), but I don't really want to be accused of taking this all too seriously again.  I just thought it was a fun and lighthearted philosophical discussion.  Maybe not as I did not have the time yesterday or today when my work starts to provide complete responses at this time. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by cipher

[iacas]

2 hours ago, cipher said:

In original post with the article that Erik linked(which included the statement I was referencing and quoted a couple times which was "I’ve read several things that make a very good case for the Empire as the good guys") the author of the actual article states:

Nate, I'm not going to get back into it again, but… I cited other articles that don't have that stipulation, too. Other articles include the cartoons and other things to support the same argument: that the Empire are not the "bad guys."

It's not black and white. The Rebels have done a lot of bad shit themselves.

Ultimately I don't care that much. I just don't. I don't own a single Star Wars DVD. I simply like viewing the movies through two lenses at the same time. It's interesting to me.

[Nutsmacker]

You could make the argument that the Rebels were not clean at all.  However, in the context of the movie...the first order/empire/etc. is depicted as an authoritarian regime in which they rule with an iron fist.  Who needs a "galactic empire" anyway?  I think the whole senate and government concept with equal representation is more amicable to the various worlds.  The empire likes blowing up planets to demonstrate their power for pete's sake.  I think that classifies as bad guys...

 

[iacas]

I'm done caring about this much at all, @Nutsmacker… my "enjoyment" of that theory is simply in that it provides an alternative lens through which to view the series of movies. There are, IMO, blurred lines between "good" and "bad" and "light" and "dark." The points above were refuted by any number of the articles I've posted. The Senate was horribly ineffective and disbanded. It was too bloated and not serving anyone's needs. The Rebels blew up the Death Star twice. Those were the size of small planets. Etc.

Again I like those theories because they provide another way to view the movies. But I don't care enough nor do I know anywhere near enough to actually argue one side or the other.

[Nutsmacker]

Yea, I get it.  It is interesting to think about it in different ways.  I have never really considered the empire's point of view.  I always enjoy discussing star wars...everyone has their own opinion on what the franchise means.   It is pretty amazing that we are debating a movie franchise that came out 40 years ago.  

[billchao]

Just saw it last night. Good but not great. I liked it overall. Went in cold and it was very enjoyable. Caught up with the discussion here (skimmed a lot of it, TBH). Just going to share my thoughts without directly quoting anyone:

• Star Wars is a space opera, not science fiction. The science and technology in its universe is rooted in fantasy, not physics. It's been this way since the beginning. Just because it has "technology" in it, doesn't mean it is meant to be broken down with science (alternatively, I can watch a fantasy film and not criticize how dragons can possibly fly and breathe fire or how reanimated corpses work, it just is what it is). Let the suspension of disbelief do its thing.
• Holdo's attack was epic. Easily one of the best cinematic sequences I've seen in a long time. This was one of the things my friend and I always talked about when I was a kid: why didn't anyone just hyperspace suicide bomb the Death Star? I feel validated now. I don't care if this "breaks" naval warfare in the Star Wars universe (remember, the whole thing is rooted in fantasy). They'll come up with a way to explain it as well as why it wasn't used before that will leave some fans satisfied and some unsatisfied, because that's how these types of things work.
• Leia force saving herself from the vacuum of space was cheesy. It just felt...cheap. It's just one of those tired, overused Hollywood plot devices where a character overcomes overwhelming odds to survive. I didn't like it and it did break me from my suspension of disbelief for a moment because it reminded me that I was watching a movie instead of being immersed in it. BTW for those who care about these kinds of things, a human can likely survive the vacuum of space, for whatever short period of time she was out there for. But also remember my golden rule of Star Wars 
• I'm happy Snoke is dead. He was a lame plot device. Kylo Ren lacks the leadership qualities necessary to successfully govern so it will be interesting to see if the First Order begins to crumble from in-fighting. You saw some of it with Hux and his disdain for Ren's decision-making. Ren isn't as well versed as the other Sith Lords (Palpatine, Snoke) so I'm not sure he can control people the way they did. Most of their power was in manipulation and he's more of a brute force kind of guy. He can only force choke and kill so many subordinates before they realize that even force-users can be killed by non-users.
• I liked how the movie did a great job of portraying both sides in conflict. Things and people aren't good or evil, black or white. They are various shades of gray. Good people are capable of bad things and vice versa. That's a refreshing change from the overly simplistic alignment (D&D usage) views of previous movies.
• I like that Rey's parents are nobody special (though the truth of this remains to be seen). People spend too much time trying to define her character based on her lineage instead of just as who she is. The whole Rey looking for her parents thing was a character development hurdle she needed to overcome. She needed to get over why she was stranded on Jakku and focus on what she will do with her life. Just because she was an orphan on a janky desert planet doesn't mean she isn't destined for greatness. Her past doesn't matter because it doesn't define her, that's the point.
• I liked Luke. It was believable progression for his character. I'm expecting to see his force-ghost in the next film.
• Benicio Del Toro was great. So glad he was a scoundrel that turned out to be a scoundrel, instead of another Han or Lando.
• I don't get the beef about the kid at the end force-grabbing the broom. There have always been force-sensitive beings all over the galaxy. Just because the Jedi Order has been destroyed wouldn't change that.
• I'm fine with the Finn and Rose storyline. They did a good job of using her to show why someone would fight for the resistance. Plus, in a movie filled with conflict and war, she was the most compassionate character in it. I also liked how both their characters developed. Good thing they wore their good plot armor though, because they went through one hell of a roller coaster ride. I'm not sure how I feel about the romantic tension/love triangle thing they seem to be doing with Finn and Rey though, but right now I'm leaning towards not liking it.

I feel like there's more stuff I'm forgetting to write about but I've written a novel as it is, so I'm just going to leave it like this for now.

[nevets88]

I dunno if I already mentioned this, but Kathleen Kennedy, pretty much one of the producers in charge of everything, wanted a scene that displayed Princess Leia's force abilities. That's why the force bubble space walk to safety.

[jmanbooyaa]

The Leia space float like Mary Poppins was an odd choice. Her saying Luke showed she had the force when he was trying to reach her.  

[GolfLug]

17 hours ago, billchao said:

Just saw it last night. Good but not great. I liked it overall. Went in cold and it was very enjoyable. Caught up with the discussion here (skimmed a lot of it, TBH). Just going to share my thoughts without directly quoting anyone:

• Star Wars is a space opera, not science fiction. The science and technology in its universe is rooted in fantasy, not physics. It's been this way since the beginning. Just because it has "technology" in it, doesn't mean it is meant to be broken down with science (alternatively, I can watch a fantasy film and not criticize how dragons can possibly fly and breathe fire or how reanimated corpses work, it just is what it is). Let the suspension of disbelief do its thing.
• Holdo's attack was epic. Easily one of the best cinematic sequences I've seen in a long time. This was one of the things my friend and I always talked about when I was a kid: why didn't anyone just hyperspace suicide bomb the Death Star? I feel validated now. I don't care if this "breaks" naval warfare in the Star Wars universe (remember, the whole thing is rooted in fantasy). They'll come up with a way to explain it as well as why it wasn't used before that will leave some fans satisfied and some unsatisfied, because that's how these types of things work.
• Leia force saving herself from the vacuum of space was cheesy. It just felt...cheap. It's just one of those tired, overused Hollywood plot devices where a character overcomes overwhelming odds to survive. I didn't like it and it did break me from my suspension of disbelief for a moment because it reminded me that I was watching a movie instead of being immersed in it. BTW for those who care about these kinds of things, a human can likely survive the vacuum of space, for whatever short period of time she was out there for. But also remember my golden rule of Star Wars 
• I'm happy Snoke is dead. He was a lame plot device. Kylo Ren lacks the leadership qualities necessary to successfully govern so it will be interesting to see if the First Order begins to crumble from in-fighting. You saw some of it with Hux and his disdain for Ren's decision-making. Ren isn't as well versed as the other Sith Lords (Palpatine, Snoke) so I'm not sure he can control people the way they did. Most of their power was in manipulation and he's more of a brute force kind of guy. He can only force choke and kill so many subordinates before they realize that even force-users can be killed by non-users.
• I liked how the movie did a great job of portraying both sides in conflict. Things and people aren't good or evil, black or white. They are various shades of gray. Good people are capable of bad things and vice versa. That's a refreshing change from the overly simplistic alignment (D&D usage) views of previous movies.
• I like that Rey's parents are nobody special (though the truth of this remains to be seen). People spend too much time trying to define her character based on her lineage instead of just as who she is. The whole Rey looking for her parents thing was a character development hurdle she needed to overcome. She needed to get over why she was stranded on Jakku and focus on what she will do with her life. Just because she was an orphan on a janky desert planet doesn't mean she isn't destined for greatness. Her past doesn't matter because it doesn't define her, that's the point.
• I liked Luke. It was believable progression for his character. I'm expecting to see his force-ghost in the next film.
• Benicio Del Toro was great. So glad he was a scoundrel that turned out to be a scoundrel, instead of another Han or Lando.
• I don't get the beef about the kid at the end force-grabbing the broom. There have always been force-sensitive beings all over the galaxy. Just because the Jedi Order has been destroyed wouldn't change that.
• I'm fine with the Finn and Rose storyline. They did a good job of using her to show why someone would fight for the resistance. Plus, in a movie filled with conflict and war, she was the most compassionate character in it. I also liked how both their characters developed. Good thing they wore their good plot armor though, because they went through one hell of a roller coaster ride. I'm not sure how I feel about the romantic tension/love triangle thing they seem to be doing with Finn and Rey though, but right now I'm leaning towards not liking it.

I feel like there's more stuff I'm forgetting to write about but I've written a novel as it is, so I'm just going to leave it like this for now.

I like your golden rule. It is not necessarily over-simplifying but it certainly is de-conflicts science and fantasy.. . But know that anytime you use the rule, you forego any claim (not that you are..) of being a SW purist..

    

Edited December 28, 2017 by GolfLug

[rehmwa]

On 25/12/2017 at 11:16 PM, mvmac said:

Thanks for posting. I've been saying something similar for a while. A buddy of mine and my wife always disagree but can't provide much evidence to why the Empire is "evil".

This movie is one that tried to explore the 'evil' is subjective theme (the most obtuse example is the weapons dealers selling to both sides).  And that's what's distressed the traditional Star Wars fans who apparently continue to want low IQ white and black hat with little plot complexity.

Like the "Empire" this film (I really enjoyed it), they tried a few things and went out of the way to question traditional good vs evil, etc.  It's not black and white.  Frankly, I'm disappointed they didn't juxtapose the villain/hero (Ren and Rey) and have them switch to hero/villain.  Ren's conflicts and Rey's self righteousness led me to hope this would happen.  Though they do it more obtusely by having Ren being a Solo already, I'd rather see a switch at the character level in this 3 film series.  I don't think main fan base would accept that plot line without a lot of whining.

Like after "Empire", I'm sure enough whining will occur to force the 3rd installment to be fluff and nothing special.  "Jedi" was horrible and I hope they don't do the same to number 9.  But I'm not holding my breath

I'm not much of a Star Wars fan (though I really want to be).  That said, I am a fan of Empire, Rogue and Last Jedi.

1 - Laura Linney - waste of a character.  What's the point?

2 - Just because Snoke says Rey comes from anonymity, doesn't means he's telling the truth (though I tend to believe it since her counterpart is already a Solo - see above)

3 - I like the mechanic.  Just a short tie out to the sister character from the beginning and they didn't use her in any stupid PC way.

4 - Leia's floating (Guardians of the Galaxy move) back to the ship....weird.  Though I'm glad they wrote her in, this seemed to just be a "let's put an audience response kind of filler thing in here".  They needed some kind of major cathartic moment to close the scene, but I guess they still needed here for later and couldn't invest plot time to get the audience attached to a new character.  I have no doubt, also, the Leia was actually written in for the Linney scenes especially the cool self sacrifice cathersis, but then they decided they needed her for episode 9 for some reason - probably some kind of reveal about Rey or Ren......so they had to invent that horrible Linney character. 

5 - Luke's 'astral projection' - lots of sci fi series explore psychic powers, and all serious ones tend to match that his projection would be a SERIOUS expenditure.  Also, the parallel with Ben Konobi's manner of passing episode in that he 'ascended' physically - and frankly by choice can't be ignored.  Finally Mark Hamill can act - I think this role is better than Alec Guiness managed.  And it's written better.

6 - Snoke - if you aren't going to develop the character, then kill it off.  Leave a power vacuum that Ren just isn't capable of filling and let that develop....ok......I'm ok with that.  But what a lost opportunity for a sub-story

7 - bringing 'balance' to the force doesn't mean good wins...not at all

Edited December 28, 2017 by rehmwa

[rehmwa]

32 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

1 - Laura Linney - waste of a character.  What's the point?

too late to edit - but I want to point out.  Though I didn't like how this was executed (except for the self sacrifice and 'light speeed' attack scene which should have been another character).....  Laura did a very good acting job with a crappily conceived and written part.

[nevets88]

LOL  

Laura Linney

Laura Dern

Linney is a good actor, would have been cool if she was in TLJ too.

[rehmwa]

ack, good correction.  I like Linney better I think

[nevets88]

 

[iacas]

To those people who wish that, for example, Snoke had a longer back story, or Hold, or Ackbar… or whatever… aren't you really just wishing for each movie to be four hours long?

Because this one was already 2:30, without a TON of wasted time (we don't know what the Finn/Rose mission will set up for IX), so where exactly were they supposed to explore the Snoke background story, for example?

[nevets88]

Not really TLJ, but while we're talking about Star Wars

 

[rehmwa]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

To those people who wish that, for example, Snoke had a longer back story, or Hold, or Ackbar… or whatever… aren't you really just wishing for each movie to be four hours long?

Because this one was already 2:30, without a TON of wasted time (we don't know what the Finn/Rose mission will set up for IX), so where exactly were they supposed to explore the Snoke background story, for example?

Nothing more that it would be 'cool' to find out where he's from for me. Conversely, a back story about how Bill Weasley becomes a leader in the Empire would be boring.

But I agree that it's not worth the time that could be prioritized over something else.  At this point, unless they back pedal a lot, that Snoke was just a placeholder to set up Ren as a leader who will be in over his head for episode 9 - that sould provide enough conflict or twists to make the writers' jobs easier

Anyone wanting to play around about who Snoke is.....lots of theories on the web (I enjoyed the funny one where he's really JarJar).  And I'm sure a StarWarsaphile type might enlighten us from other sources.

Edited December 28, 2017 by rehmwa

[mvmac]

12 hours ago, rehmwa said:

1 - Laura Linney - waste of a character.  What's the point?

Yeah not a great character but she did have an important role.

- A counter example for Poe to learn from, showing him there are different approaches than just going in with "guns blazing". Poe had to "grow up" if he wanted to be one of the leaders in the rebellion.

- Gives the audience a little insight that Lei had her own protege's. Lineage, whether biological or not is important to these stories.

- Someone who had to be sacrificed for the light speed sceneHer leadership allowed Poe to see there are other ways to get things done than to charge in guns blazing. I agree it might have been better if Lei was the one on the ship sacrificing herself but they might have decided against killing off Luke and Lei in the same movie. BTW I don't think Luke is "gone", I think he'll still be popping up quite a bit in upcoming movies.
 

9 hours ago, rehmwa said:

Nothing more that it would be 'cool' to find out where he's from for me. 

But I agree that it's not worth the time that could be prioritized over something else.  At this point, unless they back pedal a lot, that Snoke was just a placeholder to set up Ren as a leader who will be in over his head for episode 9 - that sould provide enough conflict or twists to make the writers' jobs easier

Agree, I would have liked to get a cool reveal on who he was and how he got to power. At the end of Ep. 6, the top two Siths are dead. I think in the prequels the Emperor talks about how there is only one master and one apprentice. So who was Snoke? Was he Vader's apprentice? Are there other Siths?

I just think it would have been better to answer those questions for the audience and provide a little ethos for Snoke than just making him a generic bad guy. Not saying you have to spend an hour on the guy, the flashbacks of Luke were quick.