Modernized Rules Discussion: Areas of the Course

[Groucho Valentine]

17 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Again the problem comes from the potential to change the nature of the game. Also it could actually slow play down.

It speaks to the equitability of the game. Good putters will have a huge advantage over poor putters. Bigger gap than there is now.

I dont see how it could slow play down. Especially if you walk. When my good friend and I play matches we often don't take the stick out because it speeds it up. I think good putters already have a huge advantage over poor putters simply because they are good putters and poor putters are not...lol. I don't think a flagstick widens that gap anymore than what was already there. Poor putters miss the hole by several inches or come up short most of the time anyway. I think the idea that a poor putter is going to become a better one by simply ramming it at the hole just because the flagstick is in is a little silly. Its not like its going to become like a backboard in basketball. Just think the debate about this it is a little weird. 

[saevel25]

4 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I dont see how it could slow play down. Especially if you walk. When my good friend and I play matches we often don't take the stick out because it speeds it up.

If you don't read putts then it would speed things up. In the end, it doesn't have much effect on the pace of play. A golfer can easily remove the pin before the first golfer is even ready to putt. 

4 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I don't think a flagstick widens that gap anymore than what was already there.

It would benefit all golfers, but it still benefits what we consider now a bad putt with out the rule change. Better putters have better distance control. They are less likely to hit a putt way past. So they do not get the benefit of the flagstick in as a putter with poor distance control. 

 

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I dont see how it could slow play down. Especially if you walk.

https://flagstickrule.com/news/2017/3/27/both-cant-be-true

[mvmac]

8 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I think the idea that a poor putter is going to become a better one by simply ramming it at the hole just because the flagstick is in is a little silly.

This,

On 3/22/2017 at 10:33 AM, iacas said:

3. Hitting the ball more firmly allows for a larger margin of error. It also reduces the tendency of a slow-moving putt to "wobble" or be moved off-line due to imperfections.

Let me address the second part first.

In the last 6-12" of a putt, the ball has a tendency to wobble. It's moving more slowly, and minor imperfections can have a large effect on a ball. That's why, though the ideal capture speed is "dead weight" making the hole its full 4.25" wide, it's impractical because you'd leave too many putts short and the ball behaves unpredictably near the hole. Whether you call it the Dave Pelz "lumpy donut" or just the minor variations in the putting surface due to the fact that grass is not a perfectly flat, smooth surface (nor are golf balls, for that matter)… the ball can divert from its path quite a bit in the last foot of its travel. Hitting the ball more firmly makes the path more consistent and thus more predictable.

Go ahead… roll a ball on a putting green and watch the last foot of its roll. It'll divert relatively easily, and more so on the slower, bumpier greens many average golfers play.

 

[Groucho Valentine]

13 hours ago, mvmac said:

This,

 

That doesn't explain why a poor putter ramming it at the hole would lead to him making more putts. It just means he misses faster...

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

That doesn't explain why a poor putter ramming it at the hole would lead to him making more putts. It just means he misses faster...

He'd normally lag it and leave it nearer.

[No Mulligans]

Being a poorer putter myself, I think it will only affect me from 4 feet and in.  I play poa annua  that can be bumpy.  A 3 footer with break and a bumpy green, I'll charge at it and the pin could definitely help.

I'm less motivated to charge past 4' as I use Aimpoint to read greens and I want to continue to use Aimpoint.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

That doesn't explain why a poor putter ramming it at the hole would lead to him making more putts. It just means he misses faster...

I didn't suggest that it will help a poor putter as much. I've specifically said it will likely help better putters even more.

Poor putters… can't hit the stick on purpose as often.

[Groucho Valentine]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

I didn't suggest that it will help a poor putter as much. I've specifically said it will likely help better putters even more.

Poor putters… can't hit the stick on purpose as often.

Im a very good putter. I have to be because I'm mediocre ballstriker in relation to other players at my skill level. I don't think i could clank the stick more than 2 or 3 of 10 putts from 20 or so feet out. The only area of distance that i imagine leaving the stick in would give me any type of aid.  I think the rule change on that is so inconsequential to actual game play i find it bizarre that there is such a debate about it. They could have easily just left it alone. 

[David in FL]

21 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Im a very good putter. I have to be because I'm mediocre ballstriker in relation to other players at my skill level. I don't think i could clank the stick more than 2 or 3 of 10 putts from 20 or so feet out. The only area of distance that i imagine leaving the stick in would give me any type of aid.  I think the rule change on that is so inconsequential to actual game play i find it bizarre that there is such a debate about it. They could have easily just left it alone. 

I've been thinking about this one a lot.  I don't care for the new rule, but it's strictly a pace of play issue for me.

I agree with you.  I almost never see a putt missed that is missed because it was hit too hard and a flagstick would have subsequently helped.  When was the last time you saw someone miss a 6 foot putt because he hit it so hard that it jumped completely over the center of the cup, and a flagstick could have kept it in?  The VAST majority of missed putts are missed, well, because they miss the hole, whether completely, or by lipping out.  A flagstick won't help any of those.  Moreover, if people opt to leave the flagstick in, hoping it'll act as a backstop so they can "bang it in", when they miss, the ball is going to travel a lot further than it otherwise would have.  Now, rather than a quick cuss, and tap in/pick up/concession/whatever, you have a 4-5 foot comeback and we go through the whole process again.  Couple that with a new tendency for even better players to walk up to the hole and take the time to "evaluate" which way the pin might be leaning, to decide whether to leave it in or take it out, and I can see the process taking significantly longer than it does now.

As I said, I don't really accept that the change will make putting so much easier that it fundamentally changes the game, but I absolutely think that it will slow it down, and that's the one thing we don't need.  I really think that's going to be the effective argument against the rule change.  Everything else just detracts from that key point, in my opinion.

[mvmac]

3 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I don't think i could clank the stick more than 2 or 3 of 10 putts from 20 or so feet out.

We're mostly talking about shorter putts, 5ft and in. That's where a good putter will eat this up.

Not sure if you saw this video. I consider myself a mediocre putter 

 

[Braivo]

10 minutes ago, mvmac said:

We're mostly talking about shorter putts, 5ft and in. That's where a good putter will eat this up.

Not sure if you saw this video. I consider myself a mediocre putter 

 

I just don't see how any of those putts don't go in without the flagstick there. None of those were hit hard enough to "skip" over the hole. How did the flagstick aid you? Honest question. Perhaps you should recreate this exact video without the flagstick to show the difference? 

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I don't think i could clank the stick more than 2 or 3 of 10 putts from 20 or so feet out.

This isn't about 20 footers.

3 hours ago, David in FL said:

When was the last time you saw someone miss a 6 foot putt because he hit it so hard that it jumped completely over the center of the cup, and a flagstick could have kept it in?  The VAST majority of missed putts are missed, well, because they miss the hole, whether completely, or by lipping out.  A flagstick won't help any of those.

It helps on putts toward the edges that would lip out.  Not as much as I previously thought but it still helps a bit. And you're completely ignoring any psychological benefits etc. 

 I too agree that it will actually slow pace of play not speed it up. 

[No Mulligans]

4 hours ago, David in FL said:

I almost never see a putt missed that is missed because it was hit too hard and a flagstick would have subsequently helped.  When was the last time you saw someone miss a 6 foot putt because he hit it so hard that it jumped completely over the center of the cup, and a flagstick could have kept it in?  The VAST majority of missed putts are missed, well, because they miss the hole, whether completely, or by lipping out.  A flagstick won't help any of those.  Moreover, if people opt to leave the flagstick in, hoping it'll act as a backstop so they can "bang it in", when they miss, the ball is going to travel a lot further than it otherwise would have.  

I think the main reason it makes putting easier (for putters with really solid aim) is you can take the break out of shorter putts (or part of the break) and the ball moving faster won't be as affected by bumps in the green (really an issue with poa).  That 2 to 4 foot side hill putt becomes a little easier.  I don't think anyone said it will be a lot easier.  Also, instead of putting it 1 foot by maybe you pace it to go 2 or 3 feet by, not 5 feet by.

I agree though that it won't fundamentally change the game, it just makes putting a little easier for the better putters.  The problem I think is it won't meet the increased pace of play objective of the rule change.

Edited March 30, 2017 by No Mulligans

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

I think the main reason it makes putting easier (for putters with really solid aim) is you can take the break out of shorter putts (or part of the break) and the ball moving faster won't be as affected by bumps in the green (really an issue with poa).  That 2 to 4 foot side hill putt becomes a little easier.  I don't think anyone said it will be a lot easier.  Also, instead of putting it 1 foot by maybe you pace it to go 2 or 3 feet by, not 5 feet by.

Pretty much this.

[Groucho Valentine]

1 hour ago, Braivo said:

I just don't see how any of those putts don't go in without the flagstick there. None of those were hit hard enough to "skip" over the hole. How did the flagstick aid you? Honest question. Perhaps you should recreate this exact video without the flagstick to show the difference? 

Yeah, thats what i thought too. He would have drained all those without the stick in. I don't know what into the ruling bodies making the change, but i don't think it will give players any worthwhile advantages. And if it does, so what? If you can make more putts by banging the flagstick, more power to you lol. Thats a skill. 

[David in FL]

47 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

I think the main reason it makes putting easier (for putters with really solid aim) is you can take the break out of shorter putts (or part of the break) and the ball moving faster won't be as affected by bumps in the green (really an issue with poa).  That 2 to 4 foot side hill putt becomes a little easier.  I don't think anyone said it will be a lot easier.  Also, instead of putting it 1 foot by maybe you pace it to go 2 or 3 feet by, not 5 feet by.

I agree though that it won't fundamentally change the game, it just makes putting a little easier for the better putters.  The problem I think is it won't meet the increased pace of play objective of the rule change.

Unfortunately, the average guy out there doesn't have "really solid aim".  They already miss a LOT of 4-5 foot putts.  Trying to hit it harder really isn't going to do much more than leave them longer come-back putts.  Again, it's pace of play.  That's an easy, and convincing argument, especially in light of the argument that changing the rule is supposed to improve pace of play.

Regardless, I hope the proposed change isn't incorporated.

[No Mulligans]

1 minute ago, David in FL said:

Unfortunately, the average guy out there doesn't have "really solid aim".  

Yes, that is another draw back to me.  It creates more separation between the good players and the average players.  I see that as a negative.

I was originally in favor of trying out the new flagstick rule.  I have changed my mind and now oppose it.