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Girl Loses U.S. Junior Match After Raking Back Short Putt

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4 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

there's nothing 'poor form' here.  she just made an innocent mistake and got the appropriate penalties.  learning experience. nothing deceptive or nefarious here.  (was there something untoward later in an interview or something?  or did she accept the penalty and was just sad or embarrassed about it?)

I'm not calling her out - but sweeping that ball back that quickly, before giving her opponent is poor form in tournament play.
It is likely a habit from playing practice rounds, or even from the practice green.
I feel horrible for her, as I don't think she was trying to game the rules or pressure her opponent into conceding the putt.

But I also feel bad for Shepard, as she didn't do anything wrong - that ball had barely stopped rolling when Moon swept it back, it wasn't like Shepard balked at conceding the putt...she never had the chance. Then when asked, immediately after, she gave an honest answer.
She in no way deserves the outrage that she is getting.

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27 minutes ago, jamo said:

@saevel25 I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding @Vinsk.

That is possible. If so, my bad @Vinsk

10 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

there's nothing 'poor form' here.  she just made an innocent mistake and got the appropriate penalties.  learning experience. nothing deceptive or nefarious here.

I agree. I think she was upset with herself. She immediately wanted to retry that putt, which is allowed in Match play after the hole is completed. 

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http://www.golfdigest.com/story/conceded-putt-drama-at-solheim-anger-tears-and-a-match-ending-in-controversy

The women golfers have had problems with this, walking off without any motion or acknowledgements. I am sure this has had to have happened in the PGA a time or two though. A miscommunication seems to be going on. Regardless of the conceding or not, walking away from a opponent is ignorant and disrespectful.

Edited by Valleygolfer

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1 hour ago, Wally Fairway said:

I feel horrible for her, as I don't think she was trying to game the rules or pressure her opponent into conceding the putt.

Oh, we just have a different impression of what "poor form" means.  No biggie.  Glad I understand your comment better now.

I feel bad for the other girl too.  She shouldn't be getting flack for any of it.  And, apparently she is. 

Just kids

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For me it´s clear as water, Moon was well intended, she supposted the putt was conceded but was not so she broke a rule. The only whom will benefit from it was the blondie (don´t know her name) and it may look bad if she calls for it but it´s the rigth thing to do, Moon make a mistake (broke a rule), not her. 

Let´s say it was stroke play, an Moon break a rule, I would look less bad if the blondie call for it. 
An finally let´s say Moon was in contention in stroke play and the blondie doesn´t, it would look even less bad. 

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4 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I dont know what else to say other than you're wrong. 

It's an opinion. Different than yours. Not "wrong."

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I'm just surprised no one has made note of how deceptive teenage girls can be in competitive golf. My mother has coached the local high school girls golf team and she told me that because they peak in skill earlier than males, they feel that they need to win faster and that they will do anything to win, more so than the boys. And because only one golfer can win a tournament, they have animosity towards other competitors and will do anything to beat them, such as watching them like a hawk to see if they break any rules and demand that they get penalized immediately if they do.

Edited by golfdu

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26 minutes ago, golfdu said:

I'm just surprised no one has made note of how deceptive teenage girls can be in competitive golf. My mother has coached the local high school girls golf team and she told me that because they peak in skill earlier than males, they feel that they need to win faster and that they will do anything to win, more so than the boys. And because only one golfer can win a tournament, they have animosity towards other competitors and will do anything to beat them, such as watching them like a hawk to see if they break any rules and demand that they get penalized immediately if they do.

That was not what happened here - this was a high level competition and the rules officials were there as they played this hole. It is not a case of one player calling a penalty or rules violation on the other.

But since we are telling stories - I have one from playing high school golf.
We were in a dual meet, typical 9 hole event from back in the day. And one of the players on our team Bob, who was a hot head that talked (and practiced) better than he played on game day was down a couple of strokes playing the 8th hole. It is a fairly long par 3 with trees lining both sides of the fairway and behind the green. Bob hits the green, while his opponent is just off the green; the other guy gets up and down for par and then Bob misses his par putt leaving it about 1/2 roll short of the cup. Bob then proceeds to smack his ball into the trees towards the next tee, and he's mad at himself for getting another stroke behind WHEN his opponent speaks up and says "I never said that was good". Some words are exchanged, names are called, coaches come over and Bob has to find his ball and finish the hole. I think he ended up with a 7 or 8, which really didn't matter at that point as we only counted the lowest 4 scores of 5 guys who were playing that day.
But we all learned the lesson of nothing is good until there is a verbal, definitive concession given.
They allowed opponents to concede putts, even though it was a team stroke play competition, in order to keep the pace of play such that it didn't hold up the paying players on the course.

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12 hours ago, jamo said:

@saevel25 I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding @Vinsk.

This.

7 hours ago, iacas said:

It's an opinion. Different than yours. Not "wrong."

Yes. And I too meant to say I disagree. Nobody was wrong. That's my bad.

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Mr. Winter failed to state that "ms. Moon swept back the ball without checking with ms. Shepard first; at that moment the round was over and there was nothing ms. Shepard could have done to concede the putt."

Without that concrete statement, I expect that others will still cry foul and claim ms. Shepard was in the wrong.

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As far as I am concerned, you do not sweep a ball back in any form of match play competition unless you have an acknowledgement that your putt is conceded.  I normally do not even do that in casual rounds unless I am not keeping score.

My simple thing when I am playing with others is we agree whether we are giving putts or not.  A friend and me have a rule of no given putts when we are playing for money even if it is a short few inches putt.

 

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There's a few things people are leaving out here:

1)  While Shepard could have ignored the penalty, should Moon become aware of the penalty before teeing off on the next hole, either through something verbal or her own recognition, Moon would be required to call the penalty on herself and thus, lose the match.

2)  The match had a referee assigned.  Even if Shepard had chosen to ignore the penalty, it's quite likely the referee would have intervened before they teed off on the the next hole and assessed a penalty to Moon.

3) The true act of sportsmanship would have been for Moon to immediately concede the match once she realized her error.  Technically, it was unnecessary, but that would have been the proper display of sportsmanship by the proper party.

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4 hours ago, wadesworld said:

1)  While Shepard could have ignored the penalty, should Moon become aware of the penalty before teeing off on the next hole, either through something verbal or her own recognition, Moon would be required to call the penalty on herself and thus, lose the match.

How so?  Notice the bold and underlined part. If you give wrong information, such as not taking a penalty, it's a loss of hole, not a loss of match. Not telling your opponent you did an action that was a penalty is wrongly informing your opponent.

Quote

9-2. Match Play

a. Information as to Strokes Taken

An opponent is entitled to ascertain from the player, during the play of a hole, the number of strokes he has taken and, after play of a hole, the number of strokes taken on the hole just completed.

b. Wrong Information

A player must not give wrong information to his opponent. If a player gives wrong information, he loses the hole.

A player is deemed to have given wrong information if he:

(i)

fails to inform his opponent as soon as practicable that he has incurred a penalty, unless (a) he was obviously proceeding under a Rule involving a penalty and this was observed by his opponent, or (b) he corrects the mistake before his opponent makes his next stroke; or

(ii)

gives incorrect information during play of a hole regarding the number of strokes taken and does not correct the mistake before his opponent makes his next stroke; or

(iii)

gives incorrect information regarding the number of strokes taken to complete a hole and this affects the opponent's understanding of the result of the hole, unless he corrects the mistake before any player makes a stroke from the next teeing ground or, in the case of the last hole of the match, before all players leave the putting green.

A player has given wrong information even if it is due to the failure to include a penalty that he did not know he had incurred. It is the player's responsibility to know the Rules.

 

4 hours ago, wadesworld said:

2)  The match had a referee assigned.  Even if Shepard had chosen to ignore the penalty, it's quite likely the referee would have intervened before they teed off on the the next hole and assessed a penalty to Moon.

Maybe, Maybe not. Unless someone came up to her and said, "Sheppard didn't give her that putt." I can easily assume the referee might conclude the putt was given. What if Sheppard said, "It's good", and the ref did not hear it. I doubt the ref would inquire about it.

4 hours ago, wadesworld said:

3) The true act of sportsmanship would have been for Moon to immediately concede the match once she realized her error.  Technically, it was unnecessary, but that would have been the proper display of sportsmanship by the proper party.

First, maybe Moon thought the putt was given. If she was 100% sure that Sheppard gave her that putt, then there is no poor sportsmanship for proceeding as usual. If she realized the mistake on her own, there are procedures in the rules to do so depending on the timing. If she raked the putt back and thought, "That wasn't given." Then proceeds to call a penalty on herself or consult the ref, that is 100% the correct response and she should not have to concede the match. If she walked to the next hole and realized the mistake, she can still proceed under the rules, which do not specify that she loses the match.

 

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28 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

How so?  Notice the bold and underlined part. If you give wrong information, such as not taking a penalty, it's a loss of hole, not a loss of match. Not telling your opponent you did an action that was a penalty is wrongly informing your opponent.

It was in a sudden death playoff.

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Note: This thread is 802 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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