Pulling the Handle Inward

[nevets88]

Trending a little in my golf instructor feed, probably too academic, but for those who might be interested:

 

[DaveP043]

You're right, its pretty technical, but from what I heard (I made it almost halfway through) it makes some sense.  What I find amusing is that this guy, apparently a lead instructor at TPC Sumerlin, looks like he is doing this video in the entry hall of his home.  Bad lighting, poor acoustics.  One thing I've learned in my life, is that "presentation" is often much more important to a viewer's evaluation than the actual validity of what's being presented.  After all, most of us don't know much about the technical aspects of the subject, so we form an opinion based on the "style" of the presentation.

[billchao]

He's basically describing parametric acceleration in the golf swing, is he not? The handle gets pulled up and in which allows the player to generate more speed and transfer it to the club. You don't pull the handle down the line because we generate more speed by rotating and we rotate slower with our arms extended (think figure skating). Hand throwing is slower because you're no longer moving the hands, thus allowing the clubhead to overtake.

This falls under academic information rather than instructional information for me because you can't just decide to pull the handle up and in and magically fix your swing flaws. Whatever "release style" you use is based on what your body and the club is doing in the stages well before impact.

[Hacker James]

Joe Mayo aka Trackman Maestro, has been around for awhile and was once teamed up with Grant Waite instruction. One Tour Pro was under his instruction for a time, (Pat  ah..senior moment here)  but has since moved on.  He was often ridiculed as one who came on the scene rather recently under questionable circumstance.  As to the merits of his instruction, he probably deserves more credit than he received. He used to work with Martin Chuck or at least was known to him. 

 

oh...just remembered....Pat Perez

Edited August 10, 2017 by Hacker James

[iacas]

2 hours ago, billchao said:

He's basically describing parametric acceleration in the golf swing, is he not?

Kinda.

I don't like the phrase "pulling the grip inward." Without  getting into the details too much… I would call it simply "holding onto the club."

Consider that if there's a net force, the object moves. Near the bottom of your golf swing, when the shaft is near inline with your lead arm, which direction is the club pulling? Outward, right? So unless you want the clubhead to come flying out of your hands, what do you have to do? Hold on, right? If you drew a free body diagram of a grip pulling south, your hands (via friction) would have to pull inward/upward the same amount to keep the grip in the same place, to keep it from moving in your hands.

[colin007]

37 minutes ago, iacas said:

Kinda.

I don't like the phrase "pulling the grip inward." Without  getting into the details too much… I would call it simply "holding onto the club."

Consider that if there's a net force, the object moves. Near the bottom of your golf swing, when the shaft is near inline with your lead arm, which direction is the club pulling? Outward, right? So unless you want the clubhead to come flying out of your hands, what do you have to do? Hold on, right? If you drew a free body diagram of a grip pulling south, your hands (via friction) would have to pull inward/upward the same amount to keep the grip in the same place, to keep it from moving in your hands.

Yeah this makes sense to me. I had such trouble with the driver thread trying to get the feel of having the handle moving in and up after impact. I just could not do it.

[mfm22]

The "pulling up " happens as a result of a posting up onto left [ right } side - The left  shoulder rotates and rises  arm is connected to shoulder 

so arm rises , club handle rises - club head goes forward into impact ... It's all necessary  not new   it will happen with good mechanics. 

 

[iacas]

32 minutes ago, mfm22 said:

The "pulling up " happens as a result of a posting up onto left [ right } side - The left  shoulder rotates and rises  arm is connected to shoulder 

so arm rises , club handle rises - club head goes forward into impact ... It's all necessary  not new   it will happen with good mechanics. 

Yes, the "couple point" (or whatever you want to call it) rises from about A6 to A7 (and beyond), but the forces here aren't really about that. At the points after A7, the force that's inward is directed backward (and upward, still).

So the topic and the video is more about the right-hand image, but what you're saying is more about the left-hand image here. And it's true, too… the couple point "rises" through impact even as the clubhead (particularly with irons) continues to go downward.

[Jack Watson]

7 hours ago, nevets88 said:

Trending a little in my golf instructor feed, probably too academic, but for those who might be interested:

 

Ok,

I respect the efforts of people who self promote like Mayo.  I respect his attempts at saying this is reality/what is measured etc.

However he is so far into space with this that it's almost irrelevant.

I love science.  I love data.  

The thing is he's no Johnny Miller.  He's no Hogan.  He's no Nelson or Watson or Nicklaus.  He's never helped build a great swing.  He's all data and research and Trackman.  It's fine I believe he's capable of teaching a slicer to draw it-big whoop anyone who understands a bit knows there's easy ways to do that.  He's big on Phd people who have never competed a moment in golf.  You have to think of that fact.

Yes it does not take any special tech to view the handpath of great players just careful viewing and yes it is moving a little up and around from hip to hip I don't think anyone knowledgeable would question that simple fact.  It might feel low left but reality is that's not what happens.  I was on a forum years back when I said Hogan swung up and left not down and left as was being espoused as the hot ticket move at the time.  I was banned.  

It's easy to see if you just look!

In actual fact the thing that is confusing is the rotation.  In Happy Gilmore Neelans character said it goes up down and AROUND.

I am getting off topic though.  IMO Mayo is doing his best to advance golf and make money and for that I give kudos.

To me,  it's obvious he's never played PGA tour or near that level.  

Mayo is all a priori and no a posteriori.

What matters is not accurate description of what is happening.  What matters is how to produce that which works.  IMO Mayo is a description master and master self promoter.  From that video alone though to use TGM terms he has no idea what four barrel hitting is.

 

 

 

 

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

The thing is he's no Johnny Miller.  He's no Hogan.  He's no Nelson or Watson or Nicklaus.  He's never helped build a great swing.

I'm not sure that statement is relevant. @iacas is no Hogan, Miller, Nelson, Watson or Nicklaus either...but he's an impeccable golf instructor. And, 'He's never built a great golf swing'...may I ask how you can possibly know that?

[Vinsk]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

Kinda.

I don't like the phrase "pulling the grip inward." Without  getting into the details too much… I would call it simply "holding onto the club."

Consider that if there's a net force, the object moves. Near the bottom of your golf swing, when the shaft is near inline with your lead arm, which direction is the club pulling? Outward, right? So unless you want the clubhead to come flying out of your hands, what do you have to do? Hold on, right? If you drew a free body diagram of a grip pulling south, your hands (via friction) would have to pull inward/upward the same amount to keep the grip in the same place, to keep it from moving in your hands.

Erik, would you mind explaining how the trail hand actually trys to 'pull back' on the club? With all the speed taking place with the club...and the lead shoulder rising up causing the handle to be 'pulled upward'...how is the trail hand pulling back?

[iacas]

49 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I'm not sure that statement is relevant.

Pretty sure he wasn't talking about me.

23 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Erik, would you mind explaining how the trail hand actually trys to 'pull back' on the club? With all the speed taking place with the club...and the lead shoulder rising up causing the handle to be 'pulled upward'...how is the trail hand pulling back?

Same as it pulls inward. A lot of it is just opposing the motion the other direction.

[Vinsk]

20 minutes ago, iacas said:

Pretty sure he wasn't talking about me.

No I thought he was saying that the instructor is no legendary golfer...I was just making the point that how well someone plays doesn't necessarily determine their teaching ability.

I also meant how does He know that Mayo never helped built a great golf swing.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Vinsk

[mvmac]

Fun topic, I like golf myth-busting stuff but I want to point out it's more "classroom" golf instruction than typical golf instruction (what @billchao said). These kind of videos are great and have their place but don't take it as a "how-to" video.

It's one of those things that's good to know so you don't actively try to "pull" the handle down into a position that isn't functional or even possible. And obviously be aware after watching this video that you don't go out and just start pulling the grip towards you on the downswing, just know that it's happening automatically.

When I first learned about this, 3 or 4 years ago, it made sense to me when it was explained. You can also see how the handle does start to elevate from 6-7 on camera. I knew that "holding" wrist angles (flying wedge) on the downswing was a speed killer and that good players typically make shallow divots. So the move Joe describes helps shallow the strike and like he said, can generate a lot of speed.

 

[Vinsk]

52 minutes ago, mvmac said:

And obviously be aware after watching this video that you don't go out and just start pulling the grip towards you on the downswing,

Oh gosh no...no...

[billchao]

On 8/10/2017 at 5:47 PM, iacas said:

Consider that if there's a net force, the object moves. Near the bottom of your golf swing, when the shaft is near inline with your lead arm, which direction is the club pulling? Outward, right? So unless you want the clubhead to come flying out of your hands, what do you have to do? Hold on, right? If you drew a free body diagram of a grip pulling south, your hands (via friction) would have to pull inward/upward the same amount to keep the grip in the same place, to keep it from moving in your hands.

Yea that makes sense and is a far simpler explanation.

21 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

The thing is he's no Johnny Miller.  He's no Hogan.  He's no Nelson or Watson or Nicklaus.  He's never helped build a great swing. 

I'm struggling to see how that means Joe Mayo is somehow unqualified or unable to advance the collective understanding of the golf swing, which seems to be what you're implying.

1 hour ago, mvmac said:

And obviously be aware after watching this video that you don't go out and just start pulling the grip towards you on the downswing, just know that it's happening automatically.

Thanks, you saved my from spending the next 3 months trying to figure out how to pull the handle into my belly while keeping my arms fully extended 

[Jack Watson]

4 hours ago, billchao said:

I'm struggling to see how that means Joe Mayo is somehow unqualified or unable to advance the collective understanding of the golf swing, which seems to be what you're implying.

I think 'advancing the collective understanding' is a fine concept.  

Imo in order to do so it's worth taking into account great players input and also weighing that very heavily vs a system of observation.

Again look up a priori vs a posteriori.

Also the idea that the bottom hand is pulling back on the clubhead going through is wrong.  Hogan was straightenING the right arm through impact and he very clearly stated as much in the Coleman video.  "No pressure down or around the shaft just forward"

I am definitely not trying to imply what Hogan said is something everyone should implement to become better.  I am not saying any such thing.  I am only saying I am sure he knew what HE was doing in his swing.

Mayo tried to claim science proves that the right hand for all great golfers works in opposition to clubhead momentum through the hip to hip area.  Yes I have a problem with that.  

 

 

[billchao]

4 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Also the idea that the bottom hand is pulling back on the clubhead going through is wrong.  Hogan was straightenING the right arm through impact and he very clearly stated as much in the Coleman video.  "No pressure down or around the shaft just forward"

I feel like you missed the point of the entire video. It's not about feels. It's about what Is actually happening. Read @iacas's explanation about the "pulling" of the handle.

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Mayo tried to claim science proves that the right hand for all great golfers works in opposition to clubhead momentum through the hip to hip area.  Yes I have a problem with that.  

Your hands are just holding onto the club at that point, so if club force travels in one direction, there must be an opposing force applied by (on?) your hands to keep the club from flying in the direction it wants to travel.

Everything that happens from A6 to A8 is a direct result of what you did before. There is not enough time for your brain to tell your hands to "save the shot" and manipulate anything at A6. I wonder if our wrists are strong enough to change the motion of an object traveling at close to 100 mph in the first place. We are still governed by the laws of physics.