PING's Color Code System

[iacas]

I don't understand PING's color code system (note: as of July 10, they reverted back to an older style, eliminating some colors like "purple" and going from 3/4° adjustments back to full-° adjustments).

For example, my daughter @NatalieB was fit for -1" and purple (1.5° flat) color code in her irons. This tells you what you need to know: length and lie.

But then PING wrote to say that my fitter was using the old codes, and that purple was no more, and she would fit into black. They included these two images (bottom of post).

Now, someone tell me what I don't understand: black just says standard lie angle, but if irons are ordered 1" short, is the lie angle standard, 1° flat, 2° flat… or what? Isn't the color code just a stand-in for the lie angle?

It seems to me two pieces of information are needed: lie angle and length. Yes, they often or usually go together - 1" long and 2° upright, or 1/2" short and 1° flat or whatever - but they don't have to. You could like an upright, shorter club…

So how does a color code solve anything when you still need to know two things: length and lie? Is the color-code just a stand-in for the lie angle? If so, shouldn't purple (-1.5°) be red or orange now, with the -1" adjustment?

How did she go from -1" and 1.5° flat to -1" and standard lie angle?

[upndown21]

Perhaps the rep that told you black dot is just looking at stock measurements ( like diagram 1). I always gamed ping irons and thought the dot is only lie angle.

Not sure if that helps.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, upndown21 said:

Perhaps the rep that told you black dot is just looking at stock measurements ( like diagram 1). I always gamed ping irons and thought the dot is only lie angle.

Not sure if that helps.

The rep didn't tell me "black dot." The factory did when I tried to order "-1 inch" and "purple." They said "using the new conversion chart she's black dot now."

But if black is just lie angle, why is she -1"/black and not -1"/red or -1"/orange? Why did -1"/purple (-1.5°) become -1"/black (0°??)?

[phillyk]

I'd just ignore the conversion chart and stick to the normal fitting process with the first chart. Like you said, stick to the numbers, not what the color label is. 

That conversion chart almost seems backwards. Its weird. 

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

But if black is just lie angle, why is she -1"/black and not -1"/red or -1"/orange? Why did -1"/purple (-1.5°) become -1"/black (0°??)?

Maybe the new std black dot is a different lie angle from before?

[Denny Bang Bang]

@iacas This doesn’t make sense to me either (unless they have changed what the dots represent without providing it), but it does look like they are trying to match people based on static measurements (which might be fine for the majority of people).  You could always take your daughter back to the fitter, with the new irons, to make sure if any further lie tweaks need to be made based on a dynamic fitting.

[saevel25]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

Is the color-code just a stand-in for the lie angle?

I think it does.

11 hours ago, iacas said:

If so, shouldn't purple (-1.5°) be red or orange now, with the -1" adjustment?

Under the new chart, I would say it put her in the orange band, maybe the black band if the wrist to floor measurement is on the high side.

I think the conversion is a bit confusing. I wonder if they are comparing the charts with regard to the measurements and how they changed. A -1 club length change use to be for a 4'10 to 5'0" player. Now its for a 5'2" to a 5'3" player.

What makes it more confusing is that specifications on the website are not consistent with regards to the ladies irons. For the G Le Clubs, they are based on the red dot and standard ladies length. The G Irons are based on the black dot with standard length clubs. Is there a ladies color chart? What is standard ladies length?

[arturo28mx]

My understanding is that the dot refers only to the head in relation to the factory standard lie angle which is black. For example, a green dot would be the head bent to be 2 degrees upright. However, if the club is longer or shorter than standard length it is up to you and your fitter to decide which color code you need now to attain the effective lie angle that you want.

[Vinny Cap]

That new chart is wacked.  I have the original on my PC at home.

Arturo has it the way I understood it... " the dot refers only to the head in relation to the factory standard lie angle which is black"

I was measured on my wrist to floor and that gave them the starting point of Black +1".

I then hit some balls off the lie board with tape and that showed I needed to be a lil upright so they gave me Blue dot, standard length shafts but it still off a bit.  Grabbed Blue dot, +1" and I was hitting the ball and board good so that was what I went with.  Any of my other clubs I have gone with 1* upright and +1" on shaft length.

 

***** Just found this so I thought I would add it to the post *****

" a well-known standard in golf is that each 1/2" added to the shaft length = a 1* more UPRIGHT lie angle"

Don't know if it is 100% but wanted to share as it might help OP with his dilemma.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Vinny Cap

[phillyk]

6 minutes ago, Vinny Cap said:

***** Just found this so I thought I would add it to the post *****

" a well-known standard in golf is that each 1/2" added to the shaft length = a 1* more UPRIGHT lie angle"

Don't know if it is 100% but wanted to share as it might help OP with his dilemma.

A half inch is a half degree. But that still doesn't make this chart make sense. 

[Vinny Cap]

8 minutes ago, phillyk said:

A half inch is a half degree. But that still doesn't make this chart make sense. 

As I look around more, I am seeing a lot of different info... not sure what is gospel but I shared what I found... it might be more relevant to the old chart and my Eye2's.

[onthehunt526]

@iacas,

I'm not sure of PING's "standard" specs. But it also looks like they've eliminated yellow dot as well. 

Maybe it's because she's playing a shorter shaft, so the irons will play as if they had a flatter lie?

If I personally played PING irons, Under the old system, I was +3/4", white dot...  Now it looks like I'm +3/4", green dot. Which is a full ° flatter with static lie angle. 

Maybe they are taking what I'll call "dynamic lie" into account or "plays like lie"... This one puzzles me as well.

[Vinsk]

• What has changed?
  • The length-lie dependency has been removed by changing color code bands to an “S-shape”.
  • Each color code has a fixed lie angle irrespective of club length. This removes the need for converting color codes when using non-standard-length clubs with the AFS system.
  • Color codes have moved to 1° increments to simplify lie-angle offerings.
  • Yellow and Purple color codes have been removed.
  • Updated length recommendations better align static recommendations with dynamic fitting results. Height columns are now scaled for easier use and overlaps are removed.

• How is it more precise?
  • By analyzing over 20,000 fittings from our nFlight database, combined with years of research, we have made data-driven changes to better align static and dynamic fittings, particularly with respect to players’ length recommendations.
  • 75% of players will fit to a dynamic color code within one of the new static recommendation compared to 70% previously, while 95% will fit within two color codes compared to 90% on the previous color code system.

• How is it simpler?
  • Removing the length-lie dependency eliminates the need to convert color codes when building AFS heads at over/under standard length.
  • It also removes the need to convert back when ordering clubs at over/under standard length after a fitting using our AFS system.
  • Removing height overlaps and scaling eliminates ambiguity.
  • Plotting height and wrist-to-floor measurements for a static recommendation is more intuitive.

Does this help @iacas ?

Edited October 20, 2017 by Vinsk

[iacas]

24 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Does this help @iacas ?

Not really. I’m not sure why 1” short and 1.5 flat became 1” short and standard lie.

[Vinsk]

22 minutes ago, iacas said:

Not really. I’m not sure why 1” short and 1.5 flat became 1” short and standard lie.

Well the article mentioned that after extensive research they have found that the 'norm' for most golfers is actually more upright (blue) rather than what they used to consider as standard "black". So basically it appears that they consider 1* upright as their new black and are making adjustments accordingly?

http://www.golfhq.com/blog/

Edited October 20, 2017 by Vinsk

[iacas]

So we requested her wedges (and irons) be purple color code and -1". That's 1.5° flat.

I just stuck her 54° Glide wedge in the loft/lie machine in the "SW" hole. The SW spot is 56° and 65° lie angle.

The club properly shows a bit strong - very nearly 2°. So that's fine. But unfortunately it also shows 65° lie angle.

The specs for the 54/SS say (https://www.ping.com/clubs/wedgesdetail.aspx?id=22493): 64.4° lie angle.

It's even more upright (by about half a degree) than it's supposed to be. I bent it down to 64°. Similarly, her 58° was a bit too upright also, and I bent it down a little as well.

I hope to have caught this in time to help fix the irons.

@mvmac got a response from one of the engineers he may share, and after reading it, I'm still convinced that their system is just screwy: just stick with loft and lie. Remembering a color code doesn't help anything if the color code is a confusing stand-in for the lie.

---

Update: I bent the wedges to 63°, so they're okay now.

[mvmac]

24 minutes ago, iacas said:

@mvmac got a response from one of the engineers he may share,

Thanks for the reminder. Here is the response from the head of fitting science.

Quote

Hi Michael/Erik,

Hopefully I can help clear this up for you!

You are correct we have moved to 10 color codes and 1° increments however the system works in a different way to previously. In essence a couple of the points you make are what we have tried to improve in order to simplify with the new system.

The previous system took in to account the length-lie dependency where the “playable” lie angle of the club would change if the length of shaft changed, even if the physical lie angle of the head remained the same (i.e. a longer shaft would make the club play more upright and a shorter shaft would make the club play more flat). This used to mean that the lie angle of a color code would be different depending on the length of the club as we would account for it when building at PING.

Using your daughters example of purple color code at -1”, the physical lie angle her 7 iron would have been 61.88°, however at standard length the lie angle of a purple color code would actually be 60.38°, or at +1” it would be 63.38°. Since our AFS fitting heads are fixed lie angles, when your daughter was fit it would have been with a black AFS head which is fixed at 61.88° and a 1” short shaft which would effectively play as purple color code as the shorter shaft length meant the playable lie angle was about 1.5° flatter. Since PING would take in to account the length-lie dependency in the past the purple color code ordered at -1” would have a lie angle of 61.88° the same lie angle as the black head used in the fitting. This used to be confusing for a lot of our accounts in terms of using the correct AFS head in fittings as the fitter has to convert color codes when the player is not standard length, for example a player who used to plot as -1/2” purple color code on the old chart would have needed to sue the slightly more upright red color code with the -1/2” short shaft to make it have a “playable” lie angle of purple which would then need to be ordered. This confusion with length-lie dependency all stemmed from the days of fixed demo clubs before the ability to interchange heads and shafts in fitting systems.  

On the new system the lie angle of a color code is FIXED, IRRESPECTIVE OF THE LENGTH of the club used. So a for example a BLACK  7 iron head will be 61.88° whether it is at standard length, 1” short or 1” long. As such the color code chart was adjusted to take this in to account so the fitter would not have to make any conversions when building AFS fitting clubs or ordering when the player is not standard length.

Since the lie angle of a color code is now fixed, players who were not standard length will have a new color code on the new system to ensure that the physical lie angle of their clubs remains the same. So in your daughters example her purple 7 iron at -1” short actually had a lie angle of 61.88° which on the new system is the same lie angle of the BLACK color code. So even though your daughters color code has changed the physical lie angle of her clubs is still the same and as such they will play the same. Essentially as you described in your e-mail the New Color Code System now tells you exactly what the lie angle is which it did not previously.           

I hope I managed to explain the confusion of the old system to you, it is definitely complicated and the major reason we have moved to the new system which is similar to what you described and also much more intuitive and logical.

If you still have any questions I’d be more than happy to try and answer those for you either via e-mail or phone call.

Many Thanks

[iacas]

1 hour ago, mvmac said:

On the new system the lie angle of a color code is FIXED, IRRESPECTIVE OF THE LENGTH of the club used. So a for example a BLACK  7 iron head will be 61.88° whether it is at standard length, 1” short or 1” long. As such the color code chart was adjusted to take this in to account so the fitter would not have to make any conversions when building AFS fitting clubs or ordering when the player is not standard length.

Since the lie angle of a color code is now fixed, players who were not standard length will have a new color code on the new system to ensure that the physical lie angle of their clubs remains the same. So in your daughters example her purple 7 iron at -1” short actually had a lie angle of 61.88° which on the new system is the same lie angle of the BLACK color code.

Right, so I want it to be 60.38°.

I've sent an email off to PING, and hopefully they can get this right. That'll be some upside to the backorder.

(The PING site for the G400 irons says 62.0°, so in the email I sent I just wrote 60.5°.)

https://www.ping.com/clubs/ironsdetail.aspx?id=23278

---

And, from reading that, the color codes are now fixed, which means Black always = 61.88 (or 62.0°).

Which again begs the question: why even have color codes? Why not just call them lie angles, and let people say "1° flat" or whatever?

[mvmac]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

Which again begs the question: why even have color codes?

I think by now it's just part of their brand and what fitters are accustomed to.

6 hours ago, iacas said:

Why not just call them lie angles, and let people say "1° flat" or whatever?

I guess if you get fit or stick with PING irons it's easier to remember a color code than a number, most people have no idea what their 6-iron lie angle is. And obviously you have to be careful with just saying 1° flat because that means something different for each OEM. Heck even then length can be a little different depending on OEM because not everyone measures length the same.