JB Holmes - "Undue Delay"?

[Marty2019]

21 hours ago, TheZoid said:

I’m sorry, spectators don’t get to dictate the pace of play.  This has gone on for years…in Curt Sampson’s book “Hogan”…he referenced players being angry at officials for pushing them around Oakmont and leaving Hogan alone.  When you start pushing players and trying to selectively enforce arbitrary rules…they don’t like it.

 

Again…the players and the rules officials don’t mind.  They matter…the spectator’s selfish opinion doesn’t.

 

I know I'm a little late, but I would like to say something about the above assertions. 

Every single dollar in professional golf originates from the fans.  Without the fans, these guys are all playing amateur golf. 

If these guys ignore the fans, they will be playing for reduced purses.  That is an absolute, unarguable fact. 

So, "spectators don’t get to dictate the pace of play" is absolutely false.  That's like saying, "My customers don't get to tell me how to run my business."  Oh, yes they do. 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Marty2019

[TheZoid]

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

but the players have decided it is OK when it should not be.

This is an interesting point.....

When I was a cop I hated people telling me how I should do my job...rules were changed based on peoples ignorant opinions and it has caused more problems than it has solved.  I have friends in the medical field that complain about DEA and insurance companies dictating how they interact with patients....I know people in customer service style jobs that have been have had their livelihoods threatened based on some prick posting some pissy unreasonable review on a web-site.

When you allow people outside a profession to decide how that profession should be, it always causes problems.

While golf is entertaining...its a sport....and real fans watch it regardless.  Tiger Woods has comically destroyed a marriage, DWI, drugs, blown off fans, yells profanities on national television, ignores children seeking autographs, and plays at the pace he wants to....and the sheeple still flock to watch him play.....and I'm glad....it's nice to see someone who isn't controlled by a customer satisfaction survey

[Marty2019]

8 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

This is an interesting point.....

When I was a cop I hated people telling me how I should do my job...rules were changed based on peoples ignorant opinions and it has caused more problems than it has solved.  I have friends in the medical field that complain about DEA and insurance companies dictating how they interact with patients....I know people in customer service style jobs that have been have had their livelihoods threatened based on some prick posting some pissy unreasonable review on a web-site.

When you allow people outside a profession to decide how that profession should be, it always causes problems.

While golf is entertaining...its a sport....and real fans watch it regardless.  Tiger Woods has comically destroyed a marriage, DWI, drugs, blown off fans, yells profanities on national television, ignores children seeking autographs, and plays at the pace he wants to....and the sheeple still flock to watch him play.....and I'm glad....it's nice to see someone who isn't controlled by a customer satisfaction survey

You cannot have a profession without CUSTOMERS.   Why are you so oblivious to that FACT? 

Of course people outside a profession decide how that profession should be.  That always has been, and always will be the case. 

When you were a cop you hated people telling you how to do your job?  You really think the police should decide how the police should do their job?  In a democratic society, where we have a constitution, the citizens decide how the police should do their job.  I would NEVER allow the police to decide how they should do their job.  Never ever. 

 

[colin007]

I remember reading an archived article from a golf writer bemoaning the fact that US Open pace of play times were approaching 4 hours....

WTF happened??

[Rulesman]

Perhaps because the USGA runs the US Open not the PGA Tour

[TheZoid]

4 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

You cannot have a profession without CUSTOMERS.   Why are you so oblivious to that FACT? 

Of course people outside a profession decide how that profession should be.  That always has been, and always will be the case. 

When you were a cop you hated people telling you how to do your job?  You really think the police should decide how the police should do their job?  In a democratic society, where we have a constitution, the citizens decide how the police should do their job.  I would NEVER allow the police to decide how they should do their job.  Never ever. 

Wow...what insurance agency are you a mid-level manager at?

A quality service or product generates customers....I go to doctors because they are competent...not because they have flat screens playing the Golf Channel is their rooms...I use the products I use because they are the best quality I can afford...not because the sales person provided me with a "Superior Customer Service Experience".....and I watch professional golf because they play a game I love at a level I wish I could...not because they take selfies with me after the round.

....and that attitude towards police has led to police and citizens dying when it could have been prevented.

But, that's what I expect from people like you....you're the person I was talking about in my first post.

[Marty2019]

27 minutes ago, TheZoid said:

Wow...what insurance agency are you a mid-level manager at?

A quality service or product generates customers....I go to doctors because they are competent...not because they have flat screens playing the Golf Channel is their rooms...I use the products I use because they are the best quality I can afford...not because the sales person provided me with a "Superior Customer Service Experience".....and I watch professional golf because they play a game I love at a level I wish I could...not because they take selfies with me after the round.

....and that attitude towards police has led to police and citizens dying when it could have been prevented.

But, that's what I expect from people like you....you're the person I was talking about in my first post.

You made my point for me.  You choose the products you buy, based on the quality.  TV viewers and golf spectators make the same kind of choice.  And if the PGA Tour allows players to stand in the fairway on the 18th hole, just standing there for over 4 minutes, and that's all they show for 4 minutes, I think most people would not consider that kind of TV to be a quality product.  And they will switch the channel or just not watch golf at all.  They will make the exact same choice you made with your doctor or the other products you buy.  If it's a lousy quality TV show, they will watch something else. 

Anyone who doesn't pay attention to what consumers think of his product is a fool.  And that applies especially to the PGA Tour, which relies on TV ratings, sponsorships, advertising, and ticket sales to fund those massive paychecks that go to the players. 

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Marty2019

[iacas]

1 hour ago, TheZoid said:

When you allow people outside a profession to decide how that profession should be, it always causes problems.

While golf is entertaining...its a sport....and real fans watch it regardless.

You're off your rocker, @TheZoid.

Who do you think posts here? Casual golf fans? You're conning yourself with the constant "real fans will watch it regardless" BS. Real fans are being turned off, in droves. Golf viewership continues to plummet. More and more "real fans" would rather go play golf - or do anything else - than watch some guy stand around.

Real golf fans who want to watch golf want to watch golf. Watching some guy standing around for nearly five minutes is not golf. If I want to watch a guy stand around, I can go do anything else.

[Golfingdad]

4 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

And they will switch the channel or just not watch golf at all.

It's a fair hypothesis, but I'm not sure I agree.  Small sample size, obviously, but I wonder if anybody here changed the channel?

More likely, I would presume, is that people who didn't like it just got mad at Holmes and/or even stopped being a fan.  Everybody is still going to watch, but if he's in contention in the near future he'll probably just have fans rooting against him.

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

It's a fair hypothesis, but I'm not sure I agree.  Small sample size, obviously, but I wonder if anybody here changed the channel?

More likely, I would presume, is that people who didn't like it just got mad at Holmes and/or even stopped being a fan.  Everybody is still going to watch, but if he's in contention in the near future he'll probably just have fans rooting against him.

Drew, people are already watching less and less golf, largely because of how slow the play is and how many shots they get to see.

JB Holmes turned off even more people to watching tournament golf.

A comment from another site:

Quote

Like backstopping, insert a Ryder Cup match on the 18th hole and see what Justin Thomas's reaction would be if Sergio Garcia took over 4 minutes to play his shot? The gallery would have gotten unruly, JT would be pacing all over the place, and it would turn into an ugly scene with the word "gamesmanship" grabbing every headline. Just incredible behavior by "professionals" who choose to look the other way instead of doing the right thing. This behavior will devalue the competitiveness of the PGA Tour, IMO.

 

The only think I'd like to hear from @TheZoid at this point: how long is too long in your opinion, since you want to stick up for "the players." How long? You've dodged answering several times.

[NM Golf]

Wow, @TheZoid your police should work with complete autonomy example smacks of a police state. Search and seizure, no rights for the citizens. My brother-in-law, sister-in-law, and father-in-law, are all police officers and think you're opinion is not only bad for the public but bad for the police department itself. I think it's maybe best for the public that you WERE a cop not ARE a cop. Sorry 

It's also a bad example, the pga tour is, at it's core, entertainment. Why else would it be on television? If the entertainment value goes down then less people watch, then less money in the purses, etc, etc, etc. The entertainment value goes down when some jackass stands on the 18th hole and ponders a shot for 4:10. The entertainment value goes down when it takes the final group 6 HOURS to play 18 holes. Why do you think there is a shot clock in basketball and a play clock in football. TO SPEED THE GAME UP so its more fun to watch. 

The PGA TOUR better get on the ball and start figuring out what is driving people away from watching golf, or even playing the game in general, SLOW PLAY! Start penalizing some of these tortoises like J.B. Holmes and get them moving!

 

[Golfingdad]

51 minutes ago, iacas said:

Drew, people are already watching less and less golf, largely because of how slow the play is and how many shots they get to see.

I believe you. But then that makes it really odd that the tour and players would not want to do something about it because this would mean its actually hurting their bottom line.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I believe you. But then that makes it really odd that the tour and players would not want to do something about it because this would mean its actually hurting their bottom line.

There's an element of sticking their head in the sand going on here, and an element of the "unwritten code" that pervades the PGA Tour and leads to backstopping and these types of things.

They don't want to ruffle feathers. A lot of pros - even though they'd ultimately probably play better - are opposed to the idea of being told how quickly they should play every shot. And the PGA Tour simply may not be creative enough to come up with a system of pace of play that they can or would be willing to enforce.

But things are getting increasingly worse. There's no TW on the horizon to give golf a boost (except TW himself, but that's got a shelf life of a few years). I would think they should do something now, rather than wait until it further declines.

[TheZoid]

38 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

Wow, @TheZoid your police should work with complete autonomy example smacks of a police state. Search and seizure, no rights for the citizens. My brother-in-law, sister-in-law, and father-in-law, are all police officers and think you're opinion is not only bad for the public but bad for the police department itself. I think it's maybe best for the public that you WERE a cop not ARE a cop. Sorry 

Curious how you got to no rights for citizens, police state, etc....from me noting I didn't like it when decisions where made by people who know nothing about the business?  Police departments not allowing certain restraints, the use of tasers, limiting speed enforcement, unjust firings over You Tube comment sections, etc... has led to many problems, officer deaths, apathy, etc...  This is common knowledge in the police world... But, presumptive personal attacks seems to be a common debate tactic here...I'll keep that in mind....

 

51 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

when some jackass

Lets see.....J.B. Holmes..Solid college career...Walker Cup member, Q School graduate,Presidents Cup team....4 PGA Tour wins, looks like 7 professional wins total...roughly 22 million in earnings..... I'm sorry....he seems like he knows what he's doing...I'll send him a tweet that some nobody from New Mexico thinks he's a "jack ass"....I'll let you know what he says

[klineka]

@TheZoid Still didnt answer Erik's question

1 hour ago, iacas said:

The only think I'd like to hear from @TheZoid at this point: how long is too long in your opinion, since you want to stick up for "the players." How long? You've dodged answering several times.

 

[iacas]

Oh, @TheZoid, you should’ve just continued to lurk.

Oy.

[chspeed]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Drew, people are already watching less and less golf, largely because of how slow the play is and how many shots they get to see.

@iacas, where are you getting your data about this?

I've read theories attributing lower ratings to lack of star power, the decline of interest in playing (having many theories itself including economic inequality), and the change in viewing habits across different generations.

It's not that I think slow play isn't an issue (it drives me nuts, but mostly on the course), but I haven't seen it blamed for a large portion of the declining ratings.

From what I understand, discerning what causes a drop in ratings is very challenging. There are so many factors, and polls are notoriously unreliable. Just ask the NFL.

Edited February 2, 2018 by chspeed

[iacas]

41 minutes ago, chspeed said:

@iacas, where are you getting your data about this?

Just check Google.

I shouldn't have said "largely because." That's from what I've seen among experienced golfers, discussions on GCA and among friends, discussions here, etc.

Slow play is one of many reasons that viewers are watching less golf now than in recent years.