Loose impediments, when has a ball moved?

[Moxley]

About to take membership at a course that has more woodland than I'm used to, which is pretty exciting , but I want to understand exactly where I'll stand when I find myself there in competitions. 

I know that if you pick up a twig, and the ball rolls, and does not roll back, then you're basically penalised, fine. I also know that if the ball merely 'oscillates' and returns to it's previous spot, you're OK.

But what about these two common situations : 

- You move the twig, and the ball moves round a little. You can tell this from the ball markings, but it's not clear whether it has changed position. Probably you moved a leaf under the ball and the ball has rotated round, but it might have rolled a few millimetres away? is there enough grey area (i.e. being able to see movement, but not enough to know if it actually changed position) here to avoid the 1 shot penalty, or do you have to assume it changed position and declare a +1? 

- As you put your finger on the twig and gently start to move it, you can immediately feel the ball start to move, and before it has chance to do so, you put the twig back ensuring the ball oscillates back to precisely where it was, all the markings pointing the same way. The ball never comes to rest in a different position, but it would have done had you continued to move the twig, and it did momentarily move because of you. 

 

And, as an aside, is this rule meant to make the act of lifting impediments a deliberate risk/reward calculation, or is simply about trying to stop players improving their ball position?

 

[Shorty]

Rules 18-2 and 23 are relevant.

 

A ball is deemed to have “moved’’ if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place.

If you pull a leaf out from under the ball and it rotates, it has still moved. If it rocks a little and rocks back it has not moved.

A ball rotating is not a ball oscillating.

The rule is about not improving your lie. It has nothing to do with risk/reward.

 

[Rulesman]

Providing the ball has not changed position IMO a change in orientation is the equivalent of oscillation.

18/1 & 18/2 are significant

18/1 Ball Moves Vertically Downwards

Q.A ball lying in long grass slips vertically downwards. Or a ball is accidentally stepped on and pressed down, say a quarter of an inch, in the grass or into the ground. In each case, has the ball moved?

A.Yes, unless the ball returns to its original position. The direction of movement is immaterial.

18/2  Ball Oscillates During Address

Q.In addressing the ball, a player accidentally causes the ball to oscillate, but it returns to its original position. Has the ball "moved"?

A.No.

Re the last point - the rule have a fundamental clause. Play the ball as it lies. Although there are exceptions (eg for artificial objects), natural objects are expected to be found on a golf course and therefore no exception is made. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Rulesman

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Providing the ball has not changed position IMO a change in orientation is the equivalent of oscillation.

According to the USGA officials under whom I've trained that is inaccurate.

Imagine there is a glob of mud on one side of the ball, and you simply find a way to "rotate" the ball in place so that you no longer had the mud on the back of the ball where the club would hit it?

Oscillation is not rotation.

Though an oscillation (ball moves a tiny bit and wiggles back) likely includes an imperceptible rotation, if the rotation is perceptible we were told the ball had moved. (You also cannot rotate the ball in any situation under the rules, by any means, unless it's marked like on the putting green… so I think movement includes rotation, as the ball has not returned back to almost exactly the same position, within the limits of perception.)

This is from another topic, too:

On 6/7/2013 at 6:08 PM, Dormie1360 said:

I think your last sentence is the best advice.  I think the definition of a ball moving is written the way it is so a ball may oscillate without penalty.  Taking the definition literally, I think you would be hard pressed to move a ball by some outside force and prove it moved back to the exact same spot.  (three dimensionally).  If a loose impediment rotated a ball, I would agree it probably was offering some type of support.

This decision may be of some interest. 20-3d/3

---

To answer the OP: How about just being careful moving loose impediments around your ball? I'd have an awfully hard time NOT calling a penalty on myself if I moved something and the ball moved, even if by "letting go" or "putting back" the loose impediment, the ball settled back into what I thought was the same place. I can't really imagine a situation where I wouldn't penalize myself.

The Rules aren't meant to be punitive, but if you want to be a player with integrity, I'd be awfully careful around loose impediments that could move your ball. Basically, I wouldn't even try, because even a slight movement and I'd penalize myself.

But in the end, it's a judgment call. If you feel the ball oscillated (again according to my instructors, not including rotation), no penalty. If it moved (including rotation according to my classes), penalize yourself.

Me? I'd try to avoid moving something that might move the ball.

[Rulesman]

Definition

A ball is deemed to have "moved" if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Definition

A ball is deemed to have "moved" if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place.

Doesn’t change anything I’ve said.

Or my quote from up above.

If a ball rotates it is not in the same position.

[bkuehn1952]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Doesn’t change anything I’ve said.

Or my quote from up above.

If a ball rotates it is not in the same position.

Some time ago I asked the USGA the question about a ball rotating without actually visibly changing position.  They responded as @iacas indicated.  Rotation is considered movement, not oscillation, by the USGA.

Edited April 4, 2018 by bkuehn1952
the the

[NM Golf]

I too have to side with Erik, a ball that rotates has be deemed to have moved. If not every time someone gets a bit of mud on the back of the ball they could just rotate the ball.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

Some time ago I asked the USGA the question about a ball rotating without actually visibly changing position.  They responded as @iacas indicated.  Rotation is considered movement, not oscillation, by the the USGA.

Yes, the USGA has been consistent on this in my experience.

I asked Barry Rhodes in a Twitter PM, and he said:

Quote

Rotational motion is when something revolves around its axis, oscillating/rocking motion is when something is going back and forth and back and forth. The ruling for a ball that rotates (moves) whilst removing a loose impediment is the same as if it is caused to rotate in any other situation, penalty of one stroke and replace the ball.

He sent an earlier DM that said similar things, and agreed that rotation != oscillation.

[Rulesman]

I accept the USGA's ruling. I must admit I would be unhappy about simply rotating a leaf with a ball on top so that a glob of mud faces the other way.

However, I don't think the 2019 definition does anything to make it clearer.

Moved When a ball at rest has left its original spot and come to rest on any other spot.

This applies whether the ball has gone up, down or horizontally in any direction away from its original spot.

If the ball only wobbles (sometimes referred to as oscillating) and stays on or returns to its original spot, the ball has not moved.

The last part is even less useful as oscillating is simply describing wobbling, which the ball has not done. 

 

 

.

 

 

[iacas]

Wobble = oscillate. To me anyway.

I’m not sure what you mean.

[Rulesman]

50 minutes ago, iacas said:

Wobble = oscillate. To me anyway.

I’m not sure what you mean.

There is nothing to equate wobble/oscillate with rotate. 

A ball rotated on its vertical axis does not leave "its original spot and come to rest on any other spot"

Edited April 4, 2018 by Rulesman

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Rulesman said:

There is nothing to equate wobble/oscillate with rotate. 

A ball rotated on its vertical axis does not leave "its original spot and come to rest on any other spot"

Per the USGA, it does. It moves.

Perhaps consider that the ball is supported by a few points below. When the ball rotates, the ball is supported at different points. Hence, the ball came to rest in "another spot."

I don't know. But I don't know why you keep going 'round on this, when you've already said:

2 hours ago, Rulesman said:

I accept the USGA's ruling.

 

[Rulesman]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

But I don't know why you keep going 'round on this,

Just commenting on the fact that the new rules don't help those who aren't aware of what people from the USGA have said.

As someone else has said 'R&A/USGA staffers and officials may offer correct answers to questions, and they may be reliable sources, but there is only one "official" source. A formal publication'.

Which reminds me of the twig on the hole. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Rulesman

[Rulesman]

Sorry if I seem to be labouring this but a previous member of the JRC has queried if there is confusion between a ball 'rolling' ie turning on its horizontal axis and a ball rotating round its vertical axis.

The former would certainly move as defined.

[DaveP043]

This thread brings me back to a previous discussion. 

 @iacas and @Martyn W suggest that players should mark their ball on one side only.  This increases the chance that they'll need to mark and lift the ball to identify it.  He prefers this increased chance, because while the lifted ball may not be cleaned, it may be rotated from its original orientation when replacing it.  If the ball has a glob of mud, this could allow the player to rotate the mud away from the point of contact.

This procedure seems to me to conflict with the ruling presented in this thread.  If you move a leaf so that the ball rotates in place, you are deemed to have moved the ball.  However, if you need to lift your ball to identify it, you're allowed to rotate it when you replace it.  I'm not saying that I doubt either rule, just that they don't seem to be consistent.

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

This procedure seems to me to conflict with the ruling presented in this thread.  If you move a leaf so that the ball rotates in place, you are deemed to have moved the ball.  However, if you need to lift your ball to identify it, you're allowed to rotate it when you replace it.  I'm not saying that I doubt either rule, just that they don't seem to be consistent.

It doesn't conflict.

The Rules don't ask you to orient the ball the exact same way when you replace it. The player must simply "replace" the ball. Obviously it's moved - you've picked it up. Note that if your ball rotates in place, and is deemed to have "moved," you're still obligated to lift it up and "replace" it, again free of the obligation to get the orientation exactly correct.

And FWIW I mark my ball on both sides, and answered the question you directly asked me in that thread by saying that no, I don't encourage players to do that. IIRC I was sharing what  USGA/PGA Rules seminar guy noted that he marks his ball on one side because it can come in handy.

[Fourputt]

On 4/5/2018 at 1:58 AM, Rulesman said:

Sorry if I seem to be labouring this but a previous member of the JRC has queried if there is confusion between a ball 'rolling' ie turning on its horizontal axis and a ball rotating round its vertical axis.

The former would certainly move as defined.

Seems to me that it would be quite a trick to rotate the ball on its vertical axis, without touching it, while moving a loose impediment and still be 100% certain that it didn't move as defined in the rules.  In practical application, the ball will invariably have "moved".

Edited April 6, 2018 by Fourputt