Trans Athletes

[criley4way]

9 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

It is a complicated subject to be sure. But how would you make it better... even slightly? 

We can assume that the very best solution is going to be unfair to someone and imperfect, correct? So why not make incremental changes and build upon those with a long-term goal of make it reasonably fair to everyone involved?

The saying "don't make perfect be the enemy of better" comes to mind when I think about subjects like this.

I would set the initiation of hormone therapy relative to puberty based on the medical report of a treating physician. Is there is eventually a blood test or other measurement that would be a more fair value I'd prefer that. For me the goal would be help these people integrate as much as possible given the difficulty they have  to start with. As a geneticist I don't think that external genitals are any realistic measure nor is chromosome makeup. This is fundamentally a question of the effects of hormones on the body so we should use that measurement. And XX who don't get hormones before puberty will not catch up. XY who get therapy after puberty will always be physically more male.

My best solution but I'd be happy to hear a more informed opinion.

[Jeremie Boop]

11 minutes ago, criley4way said:

I would set the initiation of hormone therapy relative to puberty based on the medical report of a treating physician. Is there is eventually a blood test or other measurement that would be a more fair value I'd prefer that. For me the goal would be help these people integrate as much as possible given the difficulty they have  to start with. As a geneticist I don't think that external genitals are any realistic measure nor is chromosome makeup. This is fundamentally a question of the effects of hormones on the body so we should use that measurement. And XX who don't get hormones before puberty will not catch up. XY who get therapy after puberty will always be physically more male.

My best solution but I'd be happy to hear a more informed opinion.

I don't know, starting hormone therapy on kids that young... That's already a super confusing time of life, not exactly the best time to start making life changing decisions.

[criley4way]

9 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

I don't know, starting hormone therapy on kids that young... That's already a super confusing time of life, not exactly the best time to start making life changing decisions.

Jeremie

I am not advocating one way or the other, I leave that decision to the individual and family. And this is not the forum for that debate. 

I am simply suggesting that therapy before puberty is a possible line to determine athletic participation at a high level. I am not offering it because I think it is perfect but rather because there needs to be criteria and chromosomes or gender at birth are flawed as are identified gender.

As i said I don't claim to have answers, these are just my thoughts.

[Jeremie Boop]

1 minute ago, criley4way said:

Jeremie

I am not advocating one way or the other, I leave that decision to the individual and family. And this is not the forum for that debate. 

I am simply suggesting that therapy before puberty is a possible line to determine athletic participation at a high level. I am not offering it because I think it is perfect but rather because there needs to be criteria and chromosomes or gender at birth are flawed as are identified gender.

As i said I don't claim to have answers, these are just my thoughts.

Technically, yes, I agree that would be the correct time frame in order for the therapy to effect the most change and make it so that the individuals would have physiological make ups closer to that gender which they associate with.

I'm confused as to your last comment though, but I'd rather ignore it than go into a discussion about it.

[JonMA1]

3 hours ago, criley4way said:

My best solution but I'd be happy to hear a more informed opinion.

I'm not informed at all. Not only do I have a very limited knowledge of genetics, I don't have any personal experience with transgender individuals and the treatment they undergo.

The article in the OP is about titles being won and records set by transgender high school athletes with some parents wanting them banned. I suppose that makes my posts and opinions a bit off-topic. My only concern is that all kids have access and an opportunity to participate in team sports if they so desire. Records and titles are not a concern of mine, even though I recognize that they are important to most others. My suggestion was to allow a transgender female immediate access to competition by allowing her to compete against males. Will she win? Probably not often, if at all. But at least she could compete.

If creating a criteria based on hormone treatment (or whatever is logical), and testing individuals can be accomplished easily, then I would concede that to be a better, more fair option. Again, I'm very ignorant about the science.

3 hours ago, criley4way said:

For me the goal would be help these people integrate as much as possible given the difficulty they have  to start with.

It's nice to read through these posts and see that attitudes have changed a bit over what they were 20 or 30 years ago. I don't generally care as much about adults, but it's not that difficult to remember how crappy high school could be for those of us who didn't have something like this to deal with. I can't imagine what a day in the life of a transgender kid would be like. 

[CarlSpackler]

Good grief. I think I’ll crawl back into my hole and pretend that stuff like this isn’t going on. 

[Buckeyebowman]

On 8/17/2018 at 10:37 PM, CarlSpackler said:

Good grief. I think I’ll crawl back into my hole and pretend that stuff like this isn’t going on. 

I agree! I'm getting a little tired of tip-toeing around on potato chips on account of other people's "sensitivity"! Or their confusion. Or their lack of identity. I don't pick on anyone, period! But I detest being made to feel defensive simply because of the fact that I'm a heterosexual male. Like was said on Seinfeld, "Hey! There's nothing wrong with that!" 

Something like this crept into local sports talk radio the other day when a caller related his Son's experience on the football field against a school that allowed girls to compete. The kid was raised to never hit a female. But, here comes a girl running the ball down the field. The kid pulled off and didn't hit her. He asked his Dad later what was he supposed to do? He could have cleaned her clock, but would that make him a bad guy?

There's been a lot of references above about what a can of worms this opens up! You can't make separate rules for every single person out there! 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Buckeyebowman

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I agree! I'm getting a little tired of tip-toeing around on potato chips on account of other people's "sensitivity"! Or their confusion. Or their lack of identity. I don't pick on anyone, period! But I detest being made to feel defensive simply because of the fact that I'm a heterosexual male. Like was said on Seinfeld, "Hey! There's nothing wrong with that!" 

Uh, you weren't being made to "feel defensive" because you are a "heterosexual male." You're on the defensive because you spouted ignorant bullshit like this:

On 8/15/2018 at 9:50 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

Don't know if that's still the case, but it kept the tranny's out and the lesbo's in.

Of course, with all the PC nonsense running around these days, who knows what might happen?

To which you already got a few responses, including:

On 8/15/2018 at 10:52 PM, Hardspoon said:

If by “PC nonsense”, you mean calling out assholes who say things like “it kept the tranny’s out and the lesbo’s in”, sign me up for some more PC nonsense.

FWIW, the reason this is more prevalent today is NOT because there are more individuals dealing with these issues. It’s simply because today, unlike 20 years ago, people feel comfortable enough to openly acknowledge them and still try to pursue hobbies (like competitive sports).

It sure does create some tricky issues, which hopefully can be dealt with in a way that is both fair and sensitive. 

5 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

There's been a lot of references above about what a can of worms this opens up! You can't make separate rules for every single person out there! 

You can make rules that respect every person out there, and you can make a few rules for various classes of people, as well.

But to some old ignorant people, that threatens their "heterosexual male-ness" or something… 🤦‍♂️

[boogielicious]

This is a little off topic, but we had a ballot question about LGBTQ here in Mass. This was an ad made that originally wasn't going to go out, but it did. It is pretty funny and it basically sums things up about we Massholes. There is profanity BTW.