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Trans Athletes

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I just saw this blip on the info stream. This certainly creates some challenges in sports with respect to fairness. 30-40 years ago it was PED's, now this.  My first thought is simply to create a separate league - TPGA?  Crazy stuff.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-sports/as-trans-high-school-athletes-win-state-titles-parents-petition-to-ban-them/ar-AAyE4OY?li=BBnb7Kz

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A separate league is the only way to go. 

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8 hours ago, Patch said:

A separate league is the only way to go. 

That wouldn't really work on the high school level.

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10 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Boys compete with boys.  Girls compete with girls.

Problem solved.

 

Based on physiological attributes. Everything becomes wrong when a person with the attributes of a man compete with someone with attributes of a female. Men are physically superior and will always have an advantage. Some say it's unfair for a trans male becoming female not being allowed to compete with females, but it's more unfair for the female he/she is competing against. A separate league is a bit much, so maybe let them compete with people of similar number of chromosomes instead. Ie. a trans female competing with men.

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I read something a while back, that, iirc, the Olympics were going to allow Transgender folks compete with non Transgenders (cisgenders?), but they would be tested for their testosteron levels. If too high, they wouldn't be allowed to compete. I might be wrong, in what I remember reading. 

The world is changing. This is just one part of the changes taking place. 

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Having had a certain amount of exposure to transgenders through a family friend of ours, it sure seems like there is a great deal of variance in how far some have gone with their various treatments. 

In certain cases it might not be as much of a physical advantage for the transgender athlete, but in other cases it would be straight-up silly. My friend, for instance is 6-foot-5, 200-pounds of muscle, just now with breasts. The idea of my friend competing in any thing with average women would be laughable.

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Trans athletes....you mean like when Michael Jordan tried to play baseball?

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49 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

 Don't know if that's still the case, but it kept the tranny's out and the lesbo's in.

Of course, with all the PC nonsense running around these days, who knows what might happen?

If by “PC nonsense”, you mean calling out assholes who say things like “it kept the tranny’s out and the lesbo’s in”, sign me up for some more PC nonsense.

FWIW, the reason this is more prevalent today is NOT because there are more individuals dealing with these issues. It’s simply because today, unlike 20 years ago, people feel comfortable enough to openly acknowledge them and still try to pursue hobbies (like competitive sports).

It sure does create some tricky issues, which hopefully can be dealt with in a way that is both fair and sensitive. 

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Knowing trans people in my own life makes this a less difficult question as I see them as people.  I care not the direction of the transformation.  As this becomes more of an issue, I trust we will attempt to sort it out in a way that does not condemn people.

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Really tough to find a solution. Trans athletes have the right to compete, no doubt about that at all. Problem is if you put them in a league of their own it ignores the fact that they recognise themselves as female but put them in with the women and then you have the argument that they can overpower the ladies sports.

Just a minefield as it currently stands

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12 minutes ago, RussUK said:

Really tough to find a solution. Trans athletes have the right to compete, no doubt about that at all. Problem is if you put them in a league of their own it ignores the fact that they recognise themselves as female but put them in with the women and then you have the argument that they can overpower the ladies sports.

Just a minefield as it currently stands

This is the biggest issue. I think sports have a right to reasonably maintain competitive integrity.

If you have a 7'-0" tall, 260 lb male basketball payer, who then transitioned and joined the WNBA, she would probably be unstoppable. The question is, does allowing this destroy the competitive integrity of the WNBA?

Is there an argument that a male, transitioned to a female, has had years of testosterone that women do not have. Would this be considered doping? Men typically have 20x the amount of testosterone than women.

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Am I oversimplifying the situation to suggest they simply compete against men? Of course, that alone would require a tremendous change in attitude and rules, but if a league of their own isn't desirable or feasible, and competing against other females is unfair, what other options are there?

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3 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

Am I oversimplifying the situation to suggest they simply compete against men? Of course, that alone would require a tremendous change in attitude and rules, but if a league of their own isn't desirable or feasible, and competing against other females is unfair, what other options are there?

Yes that is over simplifying it. In most competitions society has made the determination that it is important for women to have equal access to sports competition. To make it fair most sports are divided by gender. Now we have a group of people who don't quite fit that division the way that it was envisioned. If we assume that a male body type tends to provide more speed and strength (true in golf as seen with top and average club head speed) then the effects of testosterone are the key question (as I see it). If you have an XY individual who identifies as a female and had hormone therapy starting before puberty and ask her to compete vs the males she is at a significant disadvantage. Conversely if she did not have hormone therapy until after puberty and adolescence then the muscle growth and bone changes will be consistent with the Male type. Yes subsequent hormone therapy will reduce that effect but once bone and muscle growth occur (in terms of lengths) they do not revert. The inverse is true for a XX who identifies as a male. The corollary is much more akin to "steroids".

IT is really complicated by the fact that some XX Females have more strength and speed than some XY males so none of this is certain. Golf has come as close as any sport to having a gender neutral competition but the gener differences due to testosterone still skew the game. Lydia Ko could not keep up with Dustin Johnson over many rounds. His strength and height (golf levers) make it unfair not matter how good her game is, a wedge in hand will beat a 5 iron over time.

 

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I think if a transgender league or event was set up by transgender athletes for transgender athletes it would meet less objections than if it was set up by non transgender (e.g. the FA or PGA etc.). I feel its kind of like "why are you telling us where we can compete" as opposed to "we are making history by setting up our own league/organisation"

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16 hours ago, saevel25 said:

This is the biggest issue. I think sports have a right to reasonably maintain competitive integrity.

If you have a 7'-0" tall, 260 lb male basketball payer, who then transitioned and joined the WNBA, she would probably be unstoppable. The question is, does allowing this destroy the competitive integrity of the WNBA?

 

Precisely it - sports are gender separated (and indeed separated on other criteria such as age) primarily for this reason - men are significantly stronger on average, and thus it's a way  of helping keeping fields competitive. Gender re-assignment does not necessarily change this, and where it does, the difference will not generally be sufficient. Even most trans activists, at least from what I understand, will differentiate between gender identity and the physical body. Well, sport is about the physical body,  not gender identity. 

There is less of a problem for women who transition to being men , but for men who transition to women, I cannot see a fair way to allow them to compete with female athletes. 

Yes, trans athletes may not be happy if they are not allowed to compete with people of their new gender, but neither will the non-trans female athletes if they they are at a competitive disadvantage. You cannot always please everybody, you can only try and be objective and fair. One person's rights should not trump those of the group as a whole. 
 

1 hour ago, RussUK said:

I think if a transgender league or event was set up by transgender athletes for transgender athletes it would meet less objections than if it was set up by non transgender (e.g. the FA or PGA etc.). I feel its kind of like "why are you telling us where we can compete" as opposed to "we are making history by setting up our own league/organisation"


I understand that participation of transgender athletes would help create engagement in such a league (and thus is obviously a good thing to strive for), but the merit in an idea really ought to stand apart from the person who proposed it. If trans athletes do not solve the issues themselves, it shouldn't be a bar to the governing bodies doing what may be necessary to protect the competitive integrity of the sport for all involved (including trans athletes).  

When we make things too much about how people feel, we risk reducing group problem solving into a contest of who is willing to be the loudest. 

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7 hours ago, criley4way said:

Yes that is over simplifying it.

It is a complicated subject to be sure. But how would you make it better... even slightly? 

We can assume that the very best solution is going to be unfair to someone and imperfect, correct? So why not make incremental changes and build upon those with a long-term goal of make it reasonably fair to everyone involved?

The saying "don't make perfect be the enemy of better" comes to mind when I think about subjects like this.

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