Learning through feel, or mechanics?

[Vinsk]

18 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

You can not tell me that whatever I am "feeling" is not relevant even if a video or observation from an instructor shows the action performed contradicts what I state I am feeling. 

Umm, that’s why we say ‘feel ain’t real.’ If I say you need to take the club back half way....you ‘feel’ you do...then video shows you’re past parallel....then you’re feel is not what you’re doing. That’s all it means.

It’s not saying you don’t have a feel or that you’re imagining it. It means doing something on feel does not often portray what you’re trying to do.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Vinsk

[iacas]

28 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Umm, that’s why we say ‘feel ain’t real.’ If I say you need to take the club back half way....you ‘feel’ you do...then video shows you’re past parallel....then you’re feel is not what you’re doing. That’s all it means.

It’s not saying you don’t have a feel or that you’re imagining it. It means doing something on feel does not often portray what you’re trying to do.

Uhh, this, yes.

[nevets88]

If more people used their cameras, they'd be like, holy Toledo, that's not anything I thought I looked like and better be able to get to the root of their swing issues. I am a broken record on this, but still, barely anyone uses their camera on the range still, at least from my anecdotal experience.

[DrMJG]

Mechanics gives you the skill needed; what is called feel is the response to body and brain to a shot after mechanics are employed.  Heck, I don't even trust the sound of the club hitting the ball as an indicator of anything good OR bad. Relying on just feel is like relying on a used car salesman to have only your interest at heart when selling you that 1992 Saturn with only 200,000 miles!

If I believed ONLY in feel then I am crazy stupid to spend 6x a week at the DR struggling to improve my basics. But, in the final take at the course, I have to trust a good deal of feel lest I not overthink and never be able to move the club.

Edited September 5, 2018 by DrMJG

[billchao]

8 minutes ago, nevets88 said:

If more people used their cameras, they'd be like, holy Toledo, that's not anything I thought I looked like and better be able to get to the root of their swing issues.

I disagree with the second part. Most people, even with being able to see their swing on video, don't know what they need to do to improve. They can pick out flaws, but that's not the same as being able to isolate a priority piece. I'm pretty well versed in golf swing theory for an amateur and I can struggle with it in my own swing.

[nevets88]

1 minute ago, billchao said:

I disagree with the second part. Most people, even with being able to see their swing on video, don't know what they need to do to improve. They can pick out flaws, but that's not the same as being able to isolate a priority piece. I'm pretty well versed in golf swing theory for an amateur and I can struggle with it in my own swing.

Yeah, you're right. Lemme modify that. They'd be more likely to know that they have a problem and more likely to go out and seek proper help, thus putting them on a path to real and lasting improvement.

[Vinsk]

35 minutes ago, nevets88 said:

If more people used their cameras, they'd be like, holy Toledo, that's not anything I thought I looked like and better be able to get to the root of their swing issues. I am a broken record on this, but still, barely anyone uses their camera on the range still, at least from my anecdotal experience.

I think this is probably true. I know the first time I used video I was absolutely amazed at what I was doing compared to what I felt I was doing.

[uitar9]

I know I'm opening up another can of worms but Is there a part B driver to this feel vs real debate: Ball flight?

What are we trying to change when we look through the camera lens: A swing we don't like the look of , because it doesn't meet some ideal in our heads...or ball flight? Which imho is the purpose of the exercise.

[Piz]

The feel of a swing, for me, is compartmentalized: before, during, and after.  It begins with an idea, proceeds thru a few selected sensations, and results in an overall impression.  I know what an exceptionally good pass feels like in retrospect; but not while it is unfolding.  

[iacas]

2 hours ago, uitar9 said:

I know I'm opening up another can of worms but Is there a part B driver to this feel vs real debate: Ball flight?

What are we trying to change when we look through the camera lens: A swing we don't like the look of , because it doesn't meet some ideal in our heads...or ball flight? Which imho is the purpose of the exercise.

I can only speak for myself, but everything I do is about fixing either contact or ball flight (including, sometimes, "longer" ball flight).

How a swing looks speaks to how it functions. How it functions affects the ball flight (or contact).

[Vinsk]

3 hours ago, uitar9 said:

What are we trying to change when we look through the camera lens: A swing we don't like the look of , because it doesn't meet some ideal in our heads

I have an awful habit of taking the club back way too inside and leading to a very flat back swing. This position inevitably leads to coming down over the top or outside to in. Although I can hit good shots doing this it will cause faults and poor ball striking more often than not. When I feel that I'm making adjustments and taking the club back with hands inside and club head outside, not hitting an  imaginary wall behind me, video shows I'm not doing what I want to do at all. Thus I must use video confirmation and match what feel I have when I do perform the position correctly. 

[Buckeyebowman]

I think that ball flight is a key ingredient. And you can't get good ball flight without solid contact,

I've never had a formal lesson in my life, and other than tips from a golfing Uncle (who was damn good), or from golf buddies, my lessons came from Golf Digest way back in the day when it was actually worth reading!

But anyone who picked up golf in the haphazard way that I did, chipping balls around the back yard with a hickory shafted niblick, it's all about ball flight and feel. You start hacking balls around at the local park, and suddenly you hit one pure and it flies far and straight! Wow! You want to do that again, so you try to remember what the swing felt like that produced the result. For me it was all trial and error. A lot of error. But eventually, I got pretty good.

For those who are lucky enough to benefit from formal instruction when learning the game, they are lucky if they have a teacher who can get them to understand how good mechanics "feel". Of course, a lot of that is also up to the student. I've seen guys resist their teacher even after hitting a good shot because it didn't "feel" right to them. I wonder why they're taking lessons!

Keep that kind of stuff up, and you're right back where you started!

[phillyk]

1 hour ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Of course, a lot of that is also up to the student. I've seen guys resist their teacher even after hitting a good shot because it didn't "feel" right to them. I wonder why they're taking lessons!

Gosh, this was the guy I gave a lesson to not long ago.  Came in with a pre-conceived feel from way back when.  By the end of the nearly 2hr lesson, he is hitting his 7-iron with a slight draw right at his target with reasonable consistency and decent distance.  But, he kept complaining that it wasn't the feel that he was looking for.  Not sure what else I could've done.  He may be looking for a long time to find what ever it was.

Results matter, but consistent results matter more.  A random feel can make one good result, but good mechanics make those good results happen more.

[rehmwa]

3 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

lucky if they have a teacher who can get them to understand how good mechanics "feel"

 

this is good - mechanics are real because it's what-you-are-doing,

feel CAN BE real but it has to be taught - isn't that the whole point of focused practice and good feedback?

 

You can't trust your 'feel' until you are trained to match your feel to your mechanics - again, they aren't separate - that's impossible

2 hours ago, phillyk said:

A random feel can make one good result, but good mechanics make those good results happen more.

I like this post too - your student had it backwards.  He wanted the results to match his feel.  Instead of learning the feel that matched results.

 

there was a post before that noted 'everyone is a feel player'.  I'm starting to understand the sentiment better now.  Everyone really is a feel player when they take their swing.  Maybe they don't approach their shots or training primarily as feel, but that's a digression too.  The question is whether their feel reflects reality is a different matter and likely also differentiates good players from bad ones too.  I approach/understand the golf swing in a mechanical manner - so what - the swing is still finding a feel to achieve the results I want based on that....

Edited September 10, 2018 by rehmwa