Why Would I Not Play the Longest, Most Forgiving Irons?

[DeadMan]

3 minutes ago, Unforgiven93 said:

That is an annoying gap for sure. 20 yards right in a common distance to the hole.  Also, looking at the distances I posted, I forgot a club... add a 200 between the 191 and 208.  😆

Frankly, if I didn't have a bunch of pro shop credit to spend, I wouldn't really be looking at new irons. It's not that hard to choke down on a 7 iron to take a couple of yards off. But it still something I would like to address with new irons.

[Big C]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

My answers? Control. Feel. Looks.

This is basically my take on it as well. My irons (Cleveland CB 588's) are pretty old - they do have some game improvement features to them, but are not nearly as forgiving as some of the more recent releases. But despite that, I've never seriously considered changing to a more forgiving model. Why?

To start, I love the way the club looks when I stand over the ball. It's thin and clean. That may not matter to some, but for me it inspires confidence. 

Secondly, the feedback I get from the clubs is unmatched by most of the game improvement clubs I have tried. I know within milliseconds of contact how I hit the ball, whether it's a toe-hook, a fade or dead center flushed shot. And on those rare times when I do flush it, the ball goes exactly where I want it to go - usually within a few yards of precision. 

I have played some game improvement "shovels" before and I just don't like them. I have hit seemingly-great shots that have flown my target by 10 yards or hooked left of the target unexpectedly. And while I may be able to pick up a few extra yards on my mis-hit irons, I'm willing to sacrifice that for the comfort of knowing that when I do get ahold of one, the ball is going to do what I want it to almost every time. 

 

[billchao]

2 hours ago, DeadMan said:

Occasional rocket balls. I will sometimes get a ball that goes 10+ yards further than I'm expecting, and that's not just me hitting the sweet spot. Best example from this year is when I hit a shot I was expecting to go 215 at the maximum go 235. Doesn't happen a ton, but it's annoying when it does.

The newer clubs have tried to eliminate these shots.

I used to hit some of these shots when I played GI clubs, but I switched to blades this year. You know what, I still hit some of these shots. I guess it was me all along. Sometimes I must catch the ball with just the right conditions and it carries farther than I expect/want it to.

---

But yea, I play blades now. I like how they look and feel. They're easier to hit low when I need to, which can be often. If I had to nitpick, I'd swap my 4i-6i out with more forgiving irons.

I played GI clubs for years and I haven't seen a noticeable drop off in accuracy, at least not on the course. I haven't compared them side by side on a launch monitor.

[Patch]

I play GICs, see no reason for any golfer to not play a longer, more improvement club. 

However, that said, I I have a couple of old muscle back (2i & 6i) blades I sometimes practice with. When I hit the ball correctly with either of those clubs, it's like a red hot knife sliding through butter. The lack of feeling of the club hitting the ball, in itself, is a great feeling. It's like the ball is not even there, even though it flies long, and on target. 

[TN94z]

Let me preface this by saying I am not a low handicap player any longer. My iron for the last 12+ years has been the Mizuno MP32. I love these irons. There was just nothing like hitting that crisp shot that felt like butter with them. That is why i never went searching for new irons. I felt no need. Fast forward to now...not too long ago, I won a set of Taylormade M2s in a raffle.I didn't like the looks because they were bigger than I was accustomed to, but I gave them a try. Had nothing but problems. Taylormade ended up sending a set of M1s. These were better, but still didn't fit my eye. I ended up trading them for a set of Callaway Rogue Pro irons. Until I took these out for a few rounds, I was convinced that I would be getting back in a set of Mizuno player's irons.  I have been very impressed by the Rogue Pro so far. Even though they are GI, the feel is actually pretty good, they are really accurate, have a good sound (although not like the MP32), and the distance does nothing but help. I am not at the point where I care to work the ball like the better players, but I have had no problems hitting fades or draws on demand with them. I hit the ball high anyway, but didn't notice these adding much more, if any. What I am getting to is I have changed my mindset from "GI irons are not for the better players" to "I'll probably stick with the GI irons no matter how low my handicap gets." It's all about what piece of equipment helps me get the lowest score now..

Edited September 7, 2018 by TN94z
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[iacas]

4 hours ago, Unforgiven93 said:

Thanks for the article.  So you agree with their conclusion then? That well struck shots are significantly more accurate on player's irons than GI irons?

Yep, pretty much. Matches what I've seen, and what I've heard from other companies, too.

4 hours ago, Unforgiven93 said:

Looks I understand, nothing looks as good as a blade. What don't you like about the feel?

Feel is about ten different things, but primarily for me, it's about two things:

• I hate wide soles and feel that they're far less versatile. I hate how they feel through the turf.
• I like knowing when I missed the sweet spot by 1/4" or whatever (and in which direction). A lot of GI clubs, anything near the middle feels about the same.

4 hours ago, Unforgiven93 said:

Someone needs to test this more in depth.  Take a group of scratch golfers, 10 handicap, and 20 handicap, set them up on Trackman or equivalent, hit all the different types of irons and see which types come out the most accurate/consistent for each handicap level.

That would not be the way test it. I'd do it with machines.

[Unforgiven93]

@iacas, if you thought they performed as well as player's irons on center hits, but were more forgiving everywhere else thus leading to lower scores, would you consider them then?  Despite not liking the looks and feel.  

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

That would not be the way test it. I'd do it with machines.

Machines do make sense, but real players make sense too. Using real players incorporates two of the things you mentioned not liking, look and feel.  Those two absolutely affect player confidence and consequently shot outcome, thus I think it is something that should be included when comparing a blade and a game improvement iron.  I think if all the testers hit 50 balls or so with each club, the results would be plenty statistically significant to make conclusions.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Unforgiven93

[Sandy Divot]

This always seems to open a debate, but I don't know why. If you like Gi clubs, play them. If you like blades play them. I would never try to justify my preference vs someone else's. 

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, Unforgiven93 said:

@iacas, if you thought they performed as well as player's irons on center hits, but were more forgiving everywhere else thus leading to lower scores, would you consider them then? Despite not liking the looks and feel.  

Probably not. I could get past looks (not necessarily easily), but feel is important. I like knowing whether I hit it slightly off and where. I often end up shooting higher scores with slightly "forgiving" clubs because my swing gets loose and sloppy as I don't know where I'm hitting it on the face after a round or two.

Also performance is not just about forgiveness. It's about distance control. Trajectory control. How it gets through the turf. Etc.

[Unforgiven93]

5 minutes ago, Sandy Divot said:

This always seems to open a debate, but I don't know why. If you like Gi clubs, play them. If you like blades play them. I would never try to justify my preference vs someone else's. 

I'm not trying to justify preferences at all, I genuinely wanted to know if there was a reason better players don't play them.  If @iacas and that article are correct, absolutely there is a reason.  If center hits aren't as consistent on GI irons, I don't want them either.  

[Sandy Divot]

10 minutes ago, Unforgiven93 said:

I'm not trying to justify preferences at all, I genuinely wanted to know if there was a reason better players don't play them.  If @iacas and that article are correct, absolutely there is a reason.  If center hits aren't as consistent on GI irons, I don't want them either.  

With a +1.6, I doubt inconsistency is much of a problem.

[Unforgiven93]

1 minute ago, Sandy Divot said:

With a +1.6, I doubt inconsistency is much of a problem.

You would be surprised, I bet. I average around 11 GIR/round.  Most of those misses come from inconsistent iron shots.

[Sandy Divot]

There are a couple reasons the GI irons appeal to me. I'm in my mid 69s, and the distance is a big help. Also, the cost of GI irons usually is lower. One forged iron that I have hit, and liked is the Callaway Apex, but that seems to be a hybrid of a GI and players iron.

[billchao]

4 minutes ago, Sandy Divot said:

One forged iron that I have hit, and liked is the Callaway Apex, but that seems to be a hybrid of a GI and players iron.

They're part of a newer category of irons a lot of people are calling "Players Distance Irons." They blend some GI elements in heads that look more like players irons.

[FrivolouslyWasted]

On 9/7/2018 at 1:33 PM, Patch said:

I play GICs, see no reason for any golfer to not play a longer, more improvement club. 

However, that said, I I have a couple of old muscle back (2i & 6i) blades I sometimes practice with. When I hit the ball correctly with either of those clubs, it's like a red hot knife sliding through butter. The lack of feeling of the club hitting the ball, in itself, is a great feeling. It's like the ball is not even there, even though it flies long, and on target. 

This feeling is why I have such a difficult time getting away from blades, even though I’m not nearly good enough to play them, according to the conventional wisdom. I’m basically just addicted to the dopamine rush I get from those few perfect strikes I hit each round and I’m just chasing that dragon around the course every week.

 

I just want to improve my swing so I can have that feeling more often. I’m having to wait too long between fixes.

[DrMJG]

After returning to golf after a few decades off and a major for injury, I found most of my previous game was gone and my old set of Wilson Staff had seen much better days, I also had to learn hybrids, metal woods and replace my 30 year old putter.  Given all that I had to deal with, I only looked at GI as I no longer had distance and fell.  It took a lot of trying clubs before I went with GMax.  Between the senior graphite staffs and the shape of the new clubs, it took a some of time before I have come to feel at home with these clubs.

For 35 years, I had played blades and played them well.  Good HC in my young days.  But, reality set in, and GI is for me are now the only way to go.  I no longer play tourneys and will join an old farts group this fall or early next year.  My goals are to scare or beat 80 and have fun playing the game Il love

Finally, the tour pro I often had the joy of playing with and I talked about clubs fitting what YOU need and for the game you play.  He told me to skip my high end persimmon driver and use my 1i and 3w off the tee.  After watching how I played each club, he suggested I take a few irons out of my bag.  Within a year I was flirting with a 4-6 HC.  He played a mixed bag of clubs all from the same maker.  Some were older, some brand new.  I think he was representative of other pros in the "only blade and persimmons" days.

I would love to reconnect and see what he plays these days.  If I do, I will, with permission, tell all with an emphasis on why did you change..  He is only 2 or so years older than I am.

 

[inthecup]

The one thing I would be aware of is that most game improvement irons are targeted at increased distance.  One of the part of the increased distance formula is to lower the spin.  With lower spin you will occasionally get balls that lose a lot of spin, wet, grass between the club and ball.  Then the distance is unpredictable, both long and short.  

I was playing Callaway Apex, great club picked up all kinds of distance.  BUT I could not control the distance.  That is a problem.  I went to Ping I200 which in my mind is a players game improvement club, more forgiving than you think and it goes the distance.  The range +/- is much less.  I stopped using the Apex's after 2 years.

So if you say I want to get a cavity back that still spins, go for it.

[NM Golf]

First off, I don't like the look of GI irons. They look huge and unwieldy. They have thick soles and just don't give me any confidence that I will be able to hit them the way I like. Second, they go too far. I don't need to hit a 9 iron 200 yards. The lofts on modern GI irons are stupid strong. Also, they launch too high. I hit my forged blades high, but I can knock them down if I need to. That is not the case for GI Irons, they are designed to launch high and are near impossible for me to hit on a decent trajectory. 

I put away my last set of GI irons about 15-20 years ago and fell in love with forged blades. Working at a golf course I get to hit most of the new clubs that come out each year including all the super GI stuff and its not for me.