NFL 2018-19

[Vinsk]

This. 

I’m not a fan at all of how they do the OT nonsense where if offense scores a TD the game is over. Makes zero sense. It came down to a coin toss. Once teams enter OT all is wiped clean. Football teams consist of two branches, offense and defensive. For one to be denied any chance to perform is asinine. Had KC won the toss would they have won? Very possible, but we’ll never know. Oh and remember ...Patriots have won their last 3 coin tosses in playoff OT. Typical luck for them. 

Edited January 21, 2019 by Vinsk
Don’t know why this double posted.

[klineka]

1 minute ago, Club Rat said:

Another thought about NFL overtime games, it kinda sucks a great game is decided by a coin toss.

I would like to see each team have their offense a chance to score in a 3 minute time frame.
Let the coin toss determine who has the first opportunity.

If the score is still tied, play another 3 minute OT

If one team scores a TD and the other team can not, winner - winner chickin dinner...

My wife and I were talking about this after the game last night.

The game wasn't decided by a coin toss, the Chiefs still had a chance to stop the Patriots and didnt. It's not like 8 or 9 times out of 10 the team that wins the toss marches down and scores a touchdown. Based on a reddit post, from 1974-2003 both teams had possession 72.3% of the time, and the team that won the toss won 52% of the time during that timeframe. 

Those were with the old OT rules too where just a field goal at any point in OT ended the game. So now as of like 2011 IIRC, it is even more difficult for the team that wins the coin toss to win the game without giving the other team the ball on offense, so that 72.3% number is likely even higher now.

 

But even saying all that, I do agree that both teams should have a chance with the ball. I'm a big fan of how college football does the OT, and would love to see something like that implemented in the NFL, even if they moved the starting position back a bit to like the 50 yard line or something.

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

Another thought about NFL overtime games, it kinda sucks a great game is decided by a coin toss.

It wasn't decided by a coin toss, but it was decided, ultimately, by half a team against half a team (one offense and one defense).

Which is pretty silly, too. If the Chiefs had gotten the ball first, Pats fans would have had an equally valid point about how Tom Brady didn't get a chance in OT.

[GolfLug]

Outside of the blatant Saints call I think all the coin tosses and lucky bounces were just part of the game. Adds to the drama. This is after all entertainment. 

Overall the cream rises to the top, most of the time. Both NFC and AFC had the top teams. That wasn't exactly lucky was it? Of course, if the game was structured so that the cream rose to the top every time, it would make this sport little less exciting.  

I think there is a good amount of replay reviews in the NFL already. The Saints call boils down to sheer incompetence. I would really like to hear from the official as to what was going through his mind. Even my 10 year old was scratching his head at the non-call.

I do not think you can institutionalize a greater oversight for incompetence. Only eradicate it - one poor striped referee at a time.

33 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

 

 

So why didn't he back up 6 inches?? Nobody forced him up offside and he knew not to.  

I agree with @klineka, the 'what if'/butterfly effect argument has always been weak, like these things are some fluke acts of god. Not to mention there about a thousand marginal plays every game that can re-direct the game either way. 

It is part of the sport structure, is it not?

Edited January 21, 2019 by GolfLug

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Overall the cream rises to the top, most of the time.

The problem is that "most of the time" relies too much on some truly horrific refereeing.

The Steelers were jobbed by two blatant bad calls in their game against the Saints. If one of those calls goes differently, then:

• The Saints play in LA.
• The Steelers make the playoffs while Baltimore doesn't.

Those two horrible calls - or even just one of those calls (both were on incomplete fourth down passes) - change the course of history. They affect who gets jobs. They affect who the "cream" is seen as.

Brady's performance in that game would have been judged much more - I would say accurately - had the guy lined up on-sides, or had the ref not blown the whistle like they do while ignoring penalties that occur pretty often.

So yes, it's entertainment, but it's also athletics, and people lose interest - the NFL brand is damaged - when people perceive that something is rigged or unfair or poorly managed.

[saevel25]

17 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Outside of the blatant Saints call I think all the coin tosses and lucky bounces were just part of the game. Adds to the drama. This is after all entertainment. 

That was an absurd no-call. Majority of the bad calls are on questionable PI. This was so far in the opposite direction it really defies belief.

20 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I think there is a good amount of replay reviews in the NFL already. The Saints call boils down to sheer incompetence. I would really like to hear from the official as to what was going through his mind. Even my 10 year old was scratching his head at the non-call.

On of the refs told the other one he thought he saw the ball was tipped. This was clearly not the case, but it caused the flag to not be thrown.

The biggest issue is not calling the helmet to helmet contact on the WR. The DB didn't play the ball at all.

[DrMJG]

I have been wanting the NFL to adapt a "pro" variation of the college rule for overtime.

 

[Vinsk]

58 minutes ago, iacas said:

it's entertainment, but it's also athletics, and people lose interest - the NFL brand is damaged - when people perceive that something is rigged or unfair or poorly managed.

100% agree with this.

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

This. 

I’m not a fan at all of how they do the OT nonsense where if offense scores a TD the game is over. Makes zero sense. It came down to a coin toss. Once teams enter OT all is wiped clean. Football teams consist of two branches, offense and defensive. For one to be denied any chance to perform is asinine. Had KC won the toss would they have won? Very possible, but we’ll never know. Oh and remember ...Patriots have won their last 3 coin tosses in playoff OT. Typical luck for them. 

 

You could almost** make an analogy to baseball here, I feel, to demonstrate the absurdity of the NFL overtime rules.  It would be like saying, if the visiting team hits a grand slam in the top of the 10th, the game is over immediately, but if they score only a couple of runs then the game goes to the bottom of the 10th.  And after the 10th, then it's just whoever scores first.

**It's 100% impossible to score on defense in baseball, but only highly improbable in football, hence the "almost."

I don't know why they don't just go with the college style OT.  Everybody gets equal possessions and if anybody is ever ahead at the end of each pair of possessions, its over.

That said, I still like this OT style better than the previous one where teams could win the toss, get one or two first downs and advance barely beyond midfield, and then kick a 58 yarder to win.  It may be only marginally better, but it is better.

56 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

One of the refs told the other one he thought he saw the ball was tipped. This was clearly not the case, but it caused the flag to not be thrown.

TBH, that sounds like an excuse he made up after the fact to sound less shitty ... if they think the ball is tipped they would be adamant about it at the time with their hand signals so people were fully aware of the reasoning behind the lack of the flag.  On top of that, there's no reason not to throw a flag on a tipped ball, because that IS reviewable.

[Double Mocha Man]

1.  But for Dee Ford and a certain referee the Super Bowl would be between New Orleans and Kansas City.  A much more interesting game.

2.  NFL kickers are way ahead of the DeChambeau curve.  They never take the goalposts out when kicking.  (Though I think it would help a few of them)

[GolfLug]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

The problem is that "most of the time" relies too much on some truly horrific refereeing.

So yes, it's entertainment, but it's also athletics, and people lose interest - the NFL brand is damaged - when people perceive that something is rigged or unfair or poorly managed.

The entertainment part was in reference to lucky bounces and coin tosses. Bad refereeing is not part of the entertainment package at all. If anything, I completely agree that NFL refereeing actually seems to be the bad apple that is souring the 'entertainment'.

Of course it would be unfair to include all of referees but I believe NFL has a lower standard for refereeing competence. Can't explain why, they certainly get paid well enough (avg. $150K+) and there's a substantial ref scout network in place. Incompetence really does ruin everything. Or maybe refs are pressured into under/over officiating into bad calls in high profile games. IDK, maybe refs choke too. 

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

On of the refs told the other one he thought he saw the ball was tipped. 

  That would be funny if it weren't so tragic. 

BTW, I have nothing against Rams at all. Good for them and is a very exciting team to watch.  

Edited January 21, 2019 by GolfLug

[Double Mocha Man]

7 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

The entertainment part was in reference to lucky bounces and coin tosses. Bad refereeing is not part of the entertainment package at all. If anything, I completely agree that NFL refereeing actually seems to be the bad apple that is souring the 'entertainment'.

Of course it would be unfair to include all of referees but I believe NFL has a lower standard for refereeing competence. Can't explain why, they certainly get paid well enough (avg. $150K+) and there's a substantial ref scout network in place. Incompetence really does ruin everything. Or maybe refs are pressured into under/over officiating into bad calls in high profile games. IDK, maybe refs choke too. 

  That would be funny if it weren't so tragic. 

BTW, I have nothing against Rams at all. Good for them and is a very exciting team to watch.  

I say they rules go back to those I played by in my sandlot days.  The defensive back or safety cannot touch the receiver anytime, any place... until the ball is caught.  That would make it a lot easier to referee.  All that "hand jive" is too difficult to figure out.

[Club Rat]

2 hours ago, klineka said:

I do agree that both teams should have a chance with the ball. I'm a big fan of how college football does the OT, and would love to see something like that implemented in the NFL, even if they moved the starting position back a bit to like the 50 yard line or something.

My thoughts exactly.

The shoot-out in the NHL is the most exciting venue in pro sports.
Football should have something similar. 

[iacas]

56 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

The entertainment part was in reference to lucky bounces and coin tosses.

That doesn't make any sense to me. The entertainment is the contest itself. Things that ruin or taint the contest itself detract from the entertainment value.

56 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Bad refereeing is not part of the entertainment package at all.

It is, because it directly affects the entertainment value.

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

Of course it would be unfair to include all of referees but I believe NFL has a lower standard for refereeing competence.

Possibly.  It's also possible that it's just an extremely difficult sport to officiate?  I dunno - I'm certainly not champing at the bit to give it a go (and I like refereeing soccer).  I think that it's just also likely that:

1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

refs choke too.

 

 

[GolfLug]

53 minutes ago, iacas said:

That doesn't make any sense to me. The entertainment is the contest itself. Things that ruin or taint the contest itself detract from the entertainment value.

Lol! I didn't mean to say a coin toss is in itself entertainment. Just that it adds to the overall drama of the contest by adding a degree of uncertainty. 

The real problem is both teams don't get equal opportunity. Of course there is data that say that first possession is far from a guarantee of TD. Anyway, that's besides the point. In general I think both teams should get a shot at scoring in OT.

53 minutes ago, iacas said:

It is, because it directly affects the entertainment value.

Agreed.

25 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

It's also possible that it's just an extremely difficult sport to officiate? 

Oh it is. Soccer has similar issues with contact fouls as you surely know. And one would be inclined to give them a pass if it was a close call, but some blown calls like yesterday or PI call on Steelers (Haden) are so easy at any level that the difficulty thing of officating doesn't apply IMO. And then, as you noted the douche prolly tried to make an excuse where he said he thought the ball was tipped. Hah.

These guys get paid well ($150K+/yr) for what they do so they aren't exactly joe blow off the street, so this kind of incompetence is hard to explain (assuming they are not blatantly biased). 

 

[JetFan1983]

21 hours ago, dennyjones said:

I also believe a helmet to helmet shot like the example here should be a suspension like college.   If the players and owners are serious about brain trauma they should do something to help eliminate this.  

On this one it didn't seem nearly as bad as they typically can get, but maybe they should yea. I think I'm alright with calling unsportsmanlike and then tossing him after the second offense like they're doing now.

Re: the Overtime rules. Yea, I've been railing against this one for years and years and years. I seriously thought everyone would go crazy after the Patriots beat the Falcons on the opening drive of OT two years ago, but IIRC, very few people seemed to give a shit then, probably because the comeback basically crowned Brady the GOAT in the eyes of most (and rightly so). So that was the dominant narrative. 

Anyway, the OT rules are great for regular season games, but in the playoffs, they really should've given the Chiefs the ball back. You know they were probably scoring a TD, and we were probably getting like a 55-52 game or something there. For playoff overtime, especially if you earned homefield advantage, I feel like you deserve a chance to answer if you lose the coin toss and get a TD scored on you.

Andy Reid's playcalling was pretty lame though in the 1st half. Run-Run-Pass to start. Blech. He should know the best team doesn't always win in football and that these games are too short. The lack of urgency to start this game was bad IMO. Reid left a ton of points on the field in that first half. Oh well. I'm sure he'll get another chance at this next season given that Patrick Mahomes is ridiculous. 

---

One of these days, human refs will be replaced by computers and all this stuff will be a thing of the past... at least until the mob hacks the system and we have a futuristic scandal on our hands. 

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, JetFan1983 said:

One of these days, human refs will be replaced by computers and all this stuff will be a thing of the past... at least until the mob hacks the system and we have a futuristic scandal on our hands. 

Why stop at the refs, why not replace the players too?  Remember this game: