Draw vs Fade: Which is Cooler & Reliable

[iacas]

@Pretzel, a couple hundred RPM of spin doesn't really matter when the ball lands re: roll-out, especially as both degrade during flight and wind up closer together than even at launch.

Draws often go farther simply because they're hit with less loft, but as you know that's mostly because people hit pull-draws or straight draws. A push-draw can end up going higher and shorter than a pull-fade.

[ChetlovesMer]

As the great golf savant, Lee Travino, said many times: "You can talk to a fade, but a hook won't listen." 

[billchao]

30 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

As the great golf savant, Lee Travino, said many times: "You can talk to a fade, but a hook won't listen." 

I don't know why people keep repeating that as if it's advantageous to turn the ball one direction. Comparing a hook to a fade is like comparing a shank to a draw. One is a miss, the other is a playable shot shape.

You can play a fade and still have a hook as a miss.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

As the great golf savant, Lee Travino, said many times: "You can talk to a fade, but a hook won't listen." 

"You can talk to a draw, but a slice won't listen."

Also, I love when people can't spell names right. At least you didn't say Jim Nance or Jack Nicholas.

[ChetlovesMer]

Aw man!

I can't believe I spelled Lee TREVINO wrong!

Geez, I'm a tool.

[ChetlovesMer]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

I don't know why people keep repeating that as if it's advantageous to turn the ball one direction. Comparing a hook to a fade is like comparing a shank to a draw. One is a miss, the other is a playable shot shape.

You can play a fade and still have a hook as a miss.

Well, somebody once told me... I'm really not sure if this is true but I'll repeat it here anyway. Because what is the World Wide Web, if not a place to pass on half truths and rumors? Somebody once told me that the margin of error to turn a draw into a snap hook is a lot smaller than the margin of difference between hitting a fade and a big old slice. 

I will say this: EVERY issue of any golf magazine has a half dozen articles on how to fix your slice. You almost never see an article "How to fix your hook"??????

[DaveP043]

52 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I will say this: EVERY issue of any golf magazine has a half dozen articles on how to fix your slice. You almost never see an article "How to fix your hook"??????

I've always heard that there are a whole lot more players who suffer from a big slice, as compared to guys with a big hook.  If you gotta appeal to a segment of the golfing population, might as well make it the bigger segment.

[benharris]

Draw/Equal 

I'm pretty sure I think the draw is cooler just because of a form of social conditioning. As long as I can remember, I've been told by various people, including the instructors I've taken lessons from, that the draw was the perfect result of a perfect golf swing. I was told the draw was the 'pro shot'. I know better now that's not necessarily true but whenever I see a perfectly executed draw I can't help but get a little misty-eyed...

[Pretzel]

2 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Somebody once told me that the margin of error to turn a draw into a snap hook is a lot smaller than the margin of difference between hitting a fade and a big old slice. 

The margin for error of both is identical. The amount of curvature you'll see while the ball is in flight (assuming center face contact so we can ignore the gear effect) is just a function of the difference between the face angle and the swing path. If we measure angles relative to your intended target and the clubface angle minus the swing path angle is negative, you will draw the ball. If the clubface angle minus the swing path angle is positive, you will fade the ball.

If your face is square to the target (0*) and your swing path is 2 degrees to the right of the target (+2*), the ball will curve left. It will curve right an equal amount in the air if your face is square (0*) and the swing path is 2 degrees to the left of the target (-2*). Similarly, you'll have the same amount of curve left and right if you hit two shots with a square face and one has a path of -8* and the other has a path of +8* (these would likely be a slice and a hook, that's a pretty large difference between the face angle and the path angle).

The margin for error of the two is the same. Some golfers find it easier to control a draw, others find it easier to control a fade. 

Also, as @DaveP043 mentioned, the reason you see all the advice on how to fix a slice instead of how to fix a hook is just because the vast majority of golfers struggle with a slice. Almost every golfer out on the course on any given day will be coming over the top to some degree and cutting across the ball towards their body, resulting in a slice. It's usually compounded further when they get the advice to "hit down on the ball" since coming over the top allows you to really feel like you're hitting down on the ball hard while swinging from the inside feels (to most golfers) more like you're sweeping it.

4 hours ago, iacas said:

@Pretzel, a couple hundred RPM of spin doesn't really matter when the ball lands re: roll-out, especially as both degrade during flight and wind up closer together than even at launch.

Draws often go farther simply because they're hit with less loft, but as you know that's mostly because people hit pull-draws or straight draws. A push-draw can end up going higher and shorter than a pull-fade.

Sorry, I should've mentioned that most of the difference in how the ball rolls out has to do with the fact that one shot (my push draw) has a higher trajectory and the other shot (my pull fade) is lower. The difference from spin, as you say, is negligible but I was just talking about the amount of spin on the ball since I was responding to a comment stating that draws had topspin.

[benharris]

Since, as @iacas said, amatuers more typically draw the ball with a de-lofted clubface, would the miss not be bigger with a low hook than a high slice? A lower lofted club can generate a much more significant tilt in the D-Plane than a higher lofted club right? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, benharris said:

Since, as @iacas said, amatuers more typically draw the ball with a de-lofted clubface, would the miss not be bigger with a low hook than a high slice? A lower lofted club can generate a much more significant tilt in the D-Plane than a higher lofted club right? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes and no. It's often not a huge difference, and we're talking about a miss, not the shot they play as their stock shot.

[GolfLug]

I think equally cool, although I play draws mostly as I have relatively more control on it. But that's just me. 

The few times I have faded on demand to get out of trouble with no other option flight, I remember being tickled greatly that I pulled it off. The flight was just as pleasing. But I would say the distance loss was too much and flight curve amount not predictable enough for me to play it routinely.

I do not understand why one shot shape would be inherently more reliable than the other.    

[ChetlovesMer]

2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

The margin for error of both is identical. The amount of curvature you'll see while the ball is in flight (assuming center face contact so we can ignore the gear effect) is just a function of the difference between the face angle and the swing path. If we measure angles relative to your intended target and the clubface angle minus the swing path angle is negative, you will draw the ball. If the clubface angle minus the swing path angle is positive, you will fade the ball.

If your face is square to the target (0*) and your swing path is 2 degrees to the right of the target (+2*), the ball will curve left. It will curve right an equal amount in the air if your face is square (0*) and the swing path is 2 degrees to the left of the target (-2*). Similarly, you'll have the same amount of curve left and right if you hit two shots with a square face and one has a path of -8* and the other has a path of +8* (these would likely be a slice and a hook, that's a pretty large difference between the face angle and the path angle).

The margin for error of the two is the same. Some golfers find it easier to control a draw, others find it easier to control a fade. 

Also, as @DaveP043 mentioned, the reason you see all the advice on how to fix a slice instead of how to fix a hook is just because the vast majority of golfers struggle with a slice. Almost every golfer out on the course on any given day will be coming over the top to some degree and cutting across the ball towards their body, resulting in a slice. It's usually compounded further when they get the advice to "hit down on the ball" since coming over the top allows you to really feel like you're hitting down on the ball hard while swinging from the inside feels (to most golfers) more like you're sweeping it.

Sorry, I should've mentioned that most of the difference in how the ball rolls out has to do with the fact that one shot (my push draw) has a higher trajectory and the other shot (my pull fade) is lower. The difference from spin, as you say, is negligible but I was just talking about the amount of spin on the ball since I was responding to a comment stating that draws had topspin.

@Pretzel, Thank goodness. I can always count on you to throw a crap load of math at me. 

I went to Chicago Public Schools. We didn't learn a lot of that math stuff. 
Man, I just hit the ball and then walk after it. Like my old football coach used to say "Don't think. It can only hurt the team."

[billchao]

3 hours ago, GolfLug said:

I think equally cool, although I play draws mostly as I have relatively more control on it. But that's just me. 

I do not understand why one shot shape would be inherently more reliable than the other.    

Right, everybody has a a stock shape or tendency due to their swing which makes it more reliable, for them.

If one shape had a competitive advantage over the other, most tour players would adopt it. Or rather, the players who end up being on tour would all play that shape due to the advantages over the other.

[RussUK]

I'm a fader. A draw looks cooler and i can hit the odd one (generally when i dont want to!!) but as i can hit a sight fade better i stick to it. Just a shame a few of the courses i play seemed to favour the right to left players.

Find out your stock shape and try to master it then you can try and nail down going the other way.

[Moxley]

I find a fade more slightly more reliable - I might double cross and go left, but I don't often suffer from over fading very often (i.e. slicing) when playing for a fade - overall a higher percentage of shots will work. Anything can happen when I play a draw - in summer, a draw that gets too hooky (and has been delofted) can be a disaster because there is no stopping it until it's in something like a bush.