Kuchar Pays Caddie $5k, Is Shamed, Pays $50k

[Vinsk]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

No, that’s bad logic.

I disagree. It’s pure speculation that Kuchar would’ve done better with his own caddy. A win is a win. Statistically winning by six is better than three but it doesn’t change the prize money and goes on the books as a win. What I do know is Kuchar won with Ortiz. ‘ He may have won by six’ with his regular is logical but is of no matter here. Kuchar won with this caddy.  

What am I missing here?

Edited February 16, 2019 by Vinsk

[Vinsk]

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

No, that’s bad logic.

It doesn’t say anything about the value a regular caddie provides.

I can concede that. But I don’t think it’s entirely fair or really accurate to assume Ortiz was essentially useless being that Kuchar won....being that caddies play a valuable role. I guess that’s what I’m wanting to say.

[Yukari]

I've been saying throughout this thread that Kuch comes off as a cheapskate.

I had no feelings for Kuch prior to his comment about $5,000 is a great week.  I am not disagreeing that getting paid $5,000 for a weeks work is a great week.  What I didn't like is his dismissive attitude and him sounding like Ortiz should be thankful and just shut-up.

But after this episode, I can tell you I will NOT be rooting for him to win.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

I disagree.

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

I can concede that.

Kevin, I'm not sure what you're saying here. You disagree but you can concede… when quoting basically the same post I made? Which is it?

The caddie likely didn't provide much help outside of carrying the bag around. He barely speaks any English, and so even if the putt breaks left to right, like Matt Kuchar isn't going to know that - the subtle language about "three inches if I hit it firm" or something likely isn't going to be a conversation the caddie has with Matt. The caddie didn't know Matt's game, doesn't speak English, and was likely carrying the bag for the week and not doing much else.

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

It’s pure speculation that Kuchar would’ve done better with his own caddy.

It is, but it's also speculation that Matt would have done worse with someone else, or his regular caddie.

[Vinsk]

I disagreed with my statement being bad logic but realized it was too simplistic as:

Caddies are an important component of a tour player’s game. Not having a good caddy is a disadvantage.

Kuchar’s caddy was insufficient compared to his normal caddy.

Kuchar won the golf tournament. 

Therefore: Either caddies aren’t as important as believed or Kuchar’s caddy was more useful than assumed.

That’s how I was thinking which is weak logically I see now. 

I won’t Bernhard Langer this one. Lol.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I disagreed with my statement being bad logic but realized it was too simplistic as:

Caddies are an important component of a tour player’s game. Not having a good caddy is a disadvantage.

 Kuchar’s caddy was insufficient compared to his normal caddy.

Kuchar won the golf tournament. 

Therefore: Either caddies aren’t as important as believed or Kuchar’s caddy was more useful than assumed.

That’s how I was thinking which is weak logically I see now. 

I won’t Bernhard Langer this one. Lol.

Right, my only point was that one event isn't proof of much of anything.

I think Tour caddies can be over-paid, but at the same time, their guys are one injury away from struggling to find another bag  or something. And they are away from their families, etc. too.

[ncates00]

4 hours ago, phillyk said:

What is market value here? Or is it quality of service? He wasnt going to be paid the same as a normal caddy because he could no where near give the same quality of service. He should’ve been paid a bit more, yea but no normal 8-10%, imo.

That's debatable; the guy had local knowledge of the course.  You don't pay on quality of service here.  That's why there are guidelines.  I'm not saying he deserves what Kuchar pays his normal guy.  I'm saying there are guidelines to go by and what he did was below that.  

 

4 hours ago, phillyk said:

I still think Kuch made a dick move to try and take advantage of the situation. But this whole Kuch makes this much money, this caddy makes such and such a day, so he should get paid more thing is BS.

You're missing the point, and I didn't make that point either.  Perhaps others did.  I don't care how much Kuchar makes and that has no bearing on what he should pay his caddy.  He should've paid him a reasonable percentage.  Look, I'm a "we had an agreement, so you can't cry your way out of it" guy as well.  But, that's not how it always goes.  It doesn't go that way in personal arrangements nor in the legal profession.  You have to look at the totality of the circumstances.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

That's debatable; the guy had local knowledge of the course.  You don't pay on quality of service here.  That's why there are guidelines.  I'm not saying he deserves what Kuchar pays his normal guy.  I'm saying there are guidelines to go by and what he did was below that.

Meh. His "local knowledge" might be enough to get a resort guest around. It's not going to apply much to a Tour player.

Plus, again, the guy can't speak English.

[mvmac]

22 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I think giving less than half that and gain enourmous popularity would’ve been worth it.

Yeah it was a dumb move PR wise to not be very generous with the bonus. 

16 hours ago, GolfLug said:

Mike, I think it's not about his networth or his lifestyle. It's about what his usual caddie bill would have been anyway. He would have paid as he has done throughout his career I am sure.

Can't really compare the usual rate with that week with Ortiz, completely different situations. John Wood is there for him every minute of every week, scouting the course beforehand, getting yardages, mapping greens and paying for his own travel. They can also act as emotional "support" and the good ones figure out when to give it and when to hold back. Ortiz is nowhere close to building up that "sweat equity" to earn 10%.

If I was John Wood I would have been very insulted if my guy paid a temp caddy 120K.

 

[MacDutch]

So a local cadie who cadies the course whole year round, knows less about the course then a pro caddie who visits the course once a year (for a week). Or even less because the pro’s don’t play the course every year.                                     And about not speaking English, what do we know for sure? Even caddies in Marroko at mediocre courses speak enough English, at least enough to caddie. And Matt doesn’t speak a word Mexican/Spanish too? People find ways to communicate.                                             One way or an other, Kuchar was at the top of his form. The way the caddie acted could be more important then is given credit for.

[boogielicious]

5 hours ago, MacDutch said:

So a local cadie who cadies the course whole year round, knows less about the course then a pro caddie who visits the course once a year (for a week). Or even less because the pro’s don’t play the course every year.                                     And about not speaking English, what do we know for sure? Even caddies in Marroko at mediocre courses speak enough English, at least enough to caddie. And Matt doesn’t speak a word Mexican/Spanish too? People find ways to communicate.                                             One way or an other, Kuchar was at the top of his form. The way the caddie acted could be more important then is given credit for.

The local caddies know the course, but do not know the player, his/her distances, tendencies, ball flight, etc. For a tour pro, that really helps, week in and week out.

[GolfLug]

7 hours ago, mvmac said:

Yeah it was a dumb move PR wise to not be very generous with the bonus. 

Can't really compare the usual rate with that week with Ortiz, completely different situations. John Wood is there for him every minute of every week, scouting the course beforehand, getting yardages, mapping greens and paying for his own travel. They can also act as emotional "support" and the good ones figure out when to give it and when to hold back. Ortiz is nowhere close to building up that "sweat equity" to earn 10%.

If I was John Wood I would have been very insulted if my guy paid a temp caddy 120K.

 

My point is this has nothing to do with his financial situation.

Also, nobody would say pay him same as John Wood i.e.. $120k.... but $5K instead?? I know it's a judgement call but seems like seemed somebody got lowballed the shit out of them before the tourney and cheaped out at bonus time. 

BTW, I think this will be my last post on this thread. I think it's bad karma to keep beating a dead horse..😊

Edited February 17, 2019 by GolfLug

[criley4way]

18 hours ago, Northwoods88 said:

I guess I may be in the minority but I don't think Kuchar was being cheap or unfair. If anything I would say the local caddie should be the one looked at as selfish. I look at it like this, Kuchar offered his terms before the tournament started, the caddie agreed to it. The outcome is unknown at that point, if the caddie felt like he had a chance to win the tournament he should have spoken up and agreed to a specific amount in case he won. I try to put my self in the caddies shoes, I would think it was a cool experience just to be able to hang out with a pro and get a behind the scenes look at things. That alone would be worth more then the cash he asked for. To me it seems like the caddie took advantage of the situation afterwards saying hey I can get some money out of this now that he won.

So Kuch comes up and asks this guy to carry for him.

They negotiate a deal. If Kuch misses the cut he makes 0 and he pays the fee?

The caddie could have negotiated a %, take a risk for a bigger payout. But he didn’t.

The caddie could have countered and Kuch coule have chosen a different caddie.

This bugs me in the same way that people think that founders or business owners don’t  deserve big payouts. There is a risk reward part of this. 

Unless there was a record of the contract and the negotiations this seems like the public trying to vote someone a share of Kuch’s money. 

I just don’t get it.

[Vinsk]

22 minutes ago, criley4way said:

They negotiate a deal. If Kuch misses the cut he makes 0 and he pays the fee?

No. Missed cut was to be 2k. At least these are the terms Kuchar stated were made prior to playing. 3k for top 20...4k for top 10. The 1k was the ‘bonus’ for winning.

[criley4way]

1 minute ago, Vinsk said:

No. Missed cut was to be 2k. At least these are the terms Kuchar stated were made prior to playing. 3k for top 20...4k for top 10. The 1k was the ‘bonus’ for winning.

I was saying Kuch would make 0 but still have to pay the caddie.

If there is a bonus Great! It is like when I get paid my bonus at work. It is money I negotiated in my contract but not guaranteed. I can get a nice $$ but I can also get 0, often due to things beyond my control. 

Mid you get a bonus it is a gift.

Edited February 17, 2019 by criley4way

[Vinsk]

5 minutes ago, criley4way said:

I was saying Kuch would make 0 but still have to pay the caddie.

If there is a bonus Great! It is like when I get paid my bonus at work. It is money I negotiated in my contract but not guaranteed. I can get a nice $$ but I can also get 0, often due to things beyond my control. 

Mid you get a bonus it is a gift.

Oh ok. Well I think most agree Kuchar wasn’t at fault from a ‘contract obligations’ point of view. The social issues here are what’s in question really; Kuchar wasn’t very generous having won the tournament and the caddy got greedy/caddy deserved more talk.

You can probably bet Kuchar will have a solid understanding with his next temp caddy on what Is to be paid...lol.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, MacDutch said:

So a local cadie who cadies the course whole year round, knows less about the course then a pro caddie who visits the course once a year (for a week). Or even less because the pro’s don’t play the course every year.

Knowing the course well enough to help a few bums on vacation and knowing the course well enough to help a PGA Tour player are two very different things.

For example (and it's just one example of many I could share), I had a really good caddie (by reputation) at Kiawah Island… and he couldn't help Dave and I, let alone a PGA Tour player. His advice actually hurt our game(s) until we started ignoring him.

[MacDutch]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

His advice actually hurt our game(s) until we started ignoring him.

😂