Puttin4Dough Banned

[boogielicious]

All,

@Puttin4Dough has been permanently banned from the site. Besides the nasty PMs, he admitted to have accounts here banned before. Usually we can tell from IP addresses or writing patterns that someone has returned. But we did not recognize this from his posts. Posters like him are disruptive and can be belligerent.

It is important when we have posters like him to counter irrational or flat out wrong posts. The Sand Trap gets a lot of traffic. When people search for golf topics, they often get hits on The Sand Trap. If we let posters like him spew crap, or tolerate bad behavior, it may reflect on The Sand Trap. A few of his posts were hidden or deleted in the last few days because of this.

You all have done a great job of debating and countering bad information in a mature and respectful way. Thanks for your help on things like this.

[Vinsk]

29 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

All,

@Puttin4Dough has been permanently banned from the site. Besides the nasty PMs, he admitted to have accounts here banned before. Usually we can tell from IP addresses or writing patterns that someone has returned. But we did not recognize this from his posts. Posters like him are disruptive and can be belligerent. 

 It is important when we have posters like him to counter irrational or flat our wrong posts. The Sand Trap gets a lot of traffic. When people search for golf topics, they often get hits on The Sand Trap. If we let posters like him spew crap into the thread, or have bad behavior tolerated, it may reflect on The Sand Trap. A few of his posts were hidden or deleted in the last few days because of this.

You all have done a great job of debating and countering bad information in a mature and respectful way. Thanks for your help on things like this.

I was kinda expecting this. You all show impressive patience but he was really getting ridiculous. Thanks for the notice so I’ll be sure not to tag him in any discussions .

[colin007]

You should post the really bad stuff that was hidden/deleted in here

😁

[boogielicious]

7 minutes ago, colin007 said:

You should post the really bad stuff that was hidden/deleted in here

😁

It was more of the same crap. He was just making stuff up to be contrary.

[iacas]

We never like banning people, but when people make return trips just to argue over the same old topics, we really aren't even banning multiple people, we're banning the same one multiple times.

Credit to one of our staff members, too, and I forget which one, but he called it based on some early posts AND the username.

Some of those early posts were garbage like this:

You can see it there in the preview. So he was probably someone who was banned before because he denies that the game's best players tend to extend their right knee throughout the backswing.

21 minutes ago, colin007 said:

You should post the really bad stuff that was hidden/deleted in here

😁

His last few posts included a quote from Graeme McDowell:

Aha, and in searching for that quote, I found out at least one of his former usernames.

The quote was "“You turn off your mind. You feel your golf swing without really thinking about it. It’s almost like you don’t think at all. Maybe you have one little thought, and everything else becomes automatic.” – US Open Champion, Graeme McDowell"

Now, that's a quote by ONE person - we've never said everyone must always have a swing thought - and even in the quote he says 'maybe you have one little thought'.

The quote was then followed by a "I rest my case" type of statement! Which is a shitty way to rest your case - quoting ONE guy who says "one little thought!"

But anyway, Googling that quote led me to a post he made elsewhere yesterday, and that led me to find his original username: @Golflivesmatter. His posts included crap that we eventually had to move to a separate topic:

This is a pattern we see from others somewhat frequently - they can't let something go, or continue to harbor feelings over one disagreement, so they continue to want to try to argue everything everywhere they can. Oh, they'll pick and choose the stuff they argue about where they feel they have support, but even on the swing thoughts topic, @Golflivesmatter/@Puttin4Dough couldn't respond to quotes from the game's best players saying they had swing thoughts. He kept up with the one-sided statements of fact that "swing thoughts are negative" or "swing thoughts cause tension" or bizarre examples about how when he tried a swing thought one time he hit a duck hook somewhere.

@Golflivesmatter was restricted May 2, and @Puttin4Dough "joined" on May 3.

That all makes sense now.

P.S. That he came to argue only is evidenced by his post elsewhere, which says "I take the position that having swing thoughts is perfectly fine, however, they can also clutter one's brain, and add excess tension to the swing to achieve a desired result."

Nobody was ever suggesting that you have enough to "clutter one's brain." One swing thought almost always, rarely two -backswing and downswing, or even trigger and backswing - and that's it.

---

Finally, it's important for me to assess these kinds of things and come to some kind of peace about them because, despite what some may think, I'm constantly evaluating how we moderate the forum and how I respond to people. I'm constantly in contact with the moderators to see how they feel, how they feel about my posts, how they see the conversation going, etc.

When facts like this are exposed - this person simply wanted to cause trouble, and had a chip on his shoulder, and pre-judged me and/or other posters here to be morons or wrong or whatever, combined with a personal emotional attachment to information and instruction - then there's ultimately little anyone can do.

Could we be nicer to these people, and not as confrontational, or whatever? Sure. But to what end? To let a troll spread ignorant beliefs? When someone is paying me to teach them, I don't let comments like that slide, I discuss and engage and share my side of things, often backed by facts and when a preference, I try to state that pretty clearly, too.

Anyway, in the end, I don't feel badly about the way I or any staff behaved here.

P.S. When I'm involved in the discussion, I outsource moderation of the topic to the other moderators. That's been policy here for years and years.

[Vinsk]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

We never like banning people, but when people make return trips just to argue over the same old topics, we really aren't even banning multiple people, we're banning the same one multiple times.

Credit to one of our staff members, too, and I forget which one, but he called it based on some early posts AND the username.

Some of those early posts were garbage like this:

You can see it there in the preview. So he was probably someone who was banned before because he denies that the game's best players tend to extend their right knee throughout the downswing.

His last few posts included a quote from Graeme McDowell:

Aha, and in searching for that quote, I found out at least one of his former usernames.

The quote was "“You turn off your mind. You feel your golf swing without really thinking about it. It’s almost like you don’t think at all. Maybe you have one little thought, and everything else becomes automatic.” – US Open Champion, Graeme McDowell"

Now, that's a quote by ONE person - we've never said everyone must always have a swing thought - and even in the quote he says 'maybe you have one little thought'.

The quote was then followed by a "I rest my case" type of statement! Which is a shitty way to rest your case - quoting ONE guy who says "one little thought!"

But anyway, Googling that quote led me to a post he made elsewhere yesterday, and that led me to find his original username: @Golflivesmatter. His posts included crap that we eventually had to move to a separate topic:

This is a pattern we see from others somewhat frequently - they can't let something go, or continue to harbor feelings over one disagreement, so they continue to want to try to argue everything everywhere they can. Oh, they'll pick and choose the stuff they argue about where they feel they have support, but even on the swing thoughts topic, @Golflivesmatter/@Puttin4Dough couldn't respond to quotes from the game's best players saying they had swing thoughts. He kept up with the one-sided statements of fact that "swing thoughts are negative" or "swing thoughts cause tension" or bizarre examples about how when he tried a swing thought one time he hit a duck hook somewhere.

@Golflivesmatter was restricted May 2, and @Puttin4Dough "joined" on May 3.

That all makes sense now.

P.S. That he came to argue only is evidenced by his post elsewhere, which says "I take the position that having swing thoughts is perfectly fine, however, they can also clutter one's brain, and add excess tension to the swing to achieve a desired result."

Nobody was ever suggesting that you have enough to "clutter one's brain." One swing thought almost always, rarely two -backswing and downswing, or even trigger and backswing - and that's it.

---

Finally, it's important for me to assess these kinds of things and come to some kind of peace about them because, despite what some may think, I'm constantly evaluating how we moderate the forum and how I respond to people. I'm constantly in contact with the moderators to see how they feel, how they feel about my posts, how they see the conversation going, etc.

When facts like this are exposed - this person simply wanted to cause trouble, and had a chip on his shoulder, and pre-judged me and/or other posters here to be morons or wrong or whatever, combined with a personal emotional attachment to information and instruction - then there's ultimately little anyone can do.

Could we be nicer to these people, and not as confrontational, or whatever? Sure. But to what end? To let a troll spread ignorant beliefs? When someone is paying me to teach them, I don't let comments like that slide, I discuss and engage and share my side of things, often backed by facts and when a preference, I try to state that pretty clearly, too.

Anyway, in the end, I don't feel badly about the way I or any staff behaved here.

P.S. When I'm involved in the discussion, I outsource moderation of the topic to the other moderators. That's been policy here for years and years.

Well said. Another confirmation as to why this site is the best there is. Thanks guys.

[RussUK]

Just like to say that for as long as i've been a member of this site I have yet to come across any of the moderators/staff coming accross as harsh when it comes to replying to the troll's. Like my gran used to say, "be firm but fair".

If you know you are correct and can prove it (as @iacas has done time and time again) defend tooth an nail but be gracious if proven wrong. I think all the staff and mods do this so well done to all.

P.s. As long as we dont kick the trolls off to quick, a bit of light entertainment never hurts.

[iacas]

24 minutes ago, RussUK said:

P.s. As long as we dont kick the trolls off to quick, a bit of light entertainment never hurts.

Sometimes other sites kick people out more quickly, and sometimes I think that they don't have as many problems because we tolerate them for so long. Sometimes I wonder if we don't let the trolls continue to grow.

I think as a moderating team we're starting to escalate the warning points faster, so this is helping, I think.

---

Currently we have one person we're watching. @Righty to Lefty cannot seem to grasp the simple concepts in the "Speed from the Arms" topic. He's posting off topic unrelated stuff, putting up straw men, playing the victim, etc.

But thank you, @RussUK, for your opinion.

[phillyk]

The way of all things really. When someone is really wrong, letting them or that idea live on is letting it have substance when its not. As being a site known for its solid instruction and facts about the game, we can’t let wrong information gain substance. 

[chspeed]

16 minutes ago, phillyk said:

The way of all things really. When someone is really wrong, letting them or that idea live on is letting it have substance when its not. As being a site known for its solid instruction and facts about the game, we can’t let wrong information gain substance.  

I don't think that's what this is about. If you read some of the posts by Putin4dough above, it's not that he's wrong (although he often is), it's more that he's a d***.

[phillyk]

1 minute ago, chspeed said:

I don't think that's what this is about. If you read some of the posts by Putin4dough above, it's not that he's wrong (although he often is), it's more that he's a d***.

He was both yeah. I guess i was mostly commenting on iacas reasoning for how we moderate or respond to annoying people. 

[RussUK]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 3:32 PM, iacas said:

 

---

Currently we have one person we're watching. @Righty to Lefty cannot seem to grasp the simple concepts in the "Speed from the Arms" topic. He's posting off topic unrelated stuff, putting up straw men, playing the victim, etc.

 

Probably a good move. puttin4dough and Righty to lefty seemed to be bouncing of each other quite a bit of late. Its a shame really as the vast majority of people who do step off line a little seem to take the hint some end up being decent members.

[Righty to Lefty]

On 1/25/2019 at 6:32 PM, iacas said:

Sometimes other sites kick people out more quickly, and sometimes I think that they don't have as many problems because we tolerate them for so long. Sometimes I wonder if we don't let the trolls continue to grow.

I think as a moderating team we're starting to escalate the warning points faster, so this is helping, I think.

---

Currently we have one person we're watching. @Righty to Lefty cannot seem to grasp the simple concepts in the "Speed from the Arms" topic. He's posting off topic unrelated stuff, putting up straw men, playing the victim, etc.

But thank you, @RussUK, for your opinion.

Why am I being brought up in this?  I simply agreed with some of the posts he was making and could see his point of view. Then for you to blast me to the entire forum that you are "watching me" is supposed to be progressive?  You then allowed people in the forum to call me "dumb" when you knew I couldn't respond because you had banned me for replying to posts. No one should be in here making their responses personal because if we were all in front of each other there wouldn't be any name calling. You called his statements borderline when they were over the line but then if I respond in turn being disrespectful to him then I'm the one that is perceived as a troll and would get the permanent ban.  Then I am being brought up in an open forum and just happen to come across it while looking through the threads.  

[boogielicious]

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Why am I being brought up in this?  I simply agreed with some of the posts he was making and could see his point of view. Then for you to blast me to the entire forum that you are "watching me" is supposed to be progressive?  You then allowed people in the forum to call me "dumb" when you knew I couldn't respond because you had banned me for replying to posts. No one should be in here making their responses personal because if we were all in front of each other there wouldn't be any name calling. You called his statements borderline when they were over the line but then if I respond in turn being disrespectful to him then I'm the one that is perceived as a troll and would get the permanent ban.  Then I am being brought up in an open forum and just happen to come across it while looking through the threads.  

First of all, you were not banned from posting. You were restricted from posting because you were warned about off-topic content in a thread repeatedly. If anyone called you a name, they would have been warned as well. Personal attacks are not tolerated. 

Some posts you made during restriction may have been off topic and were hidden or deleted.

Now if someone posted that a statement you made was 'dumb', that is not a personal attack. It is countering a statement. Please understand the difference.

We moderate content of threads to stay on subject of that thread. This way, the thread remains specific to the OP. It makes reading the thread much easier. When you go off on tangents, it disrupts the thread. 

When we post ideas about a subject, we will often spark debate, especially if others feel we are incorrect about it. The Speed of the Arms thread is an example for you. You seem to miss what the thread is about. It states that the largest contributor to speed is the arms. The OP provided a significant amount of data, videos, etc. showing this. You seemed to have then misread it.  You then go off on tangents about the 'ground pushing back' and such and a bunch of other incorrect, off-topic statements, which then prompts others to correct you. You respond with more off-topic, incorrect information. It is a tiring cycle.

Please take this advice.

1. Really read what posters are stating, especially the original post.
2. Stick to that subject.
3. If someone asks you to clarify a point with a question, answer the question in your next post.
4. Expect that people with more knowledge on the subject are going to counter statements you make with data.
5. If you have data to support your side, then provide the data. But expect the data to be peer reviewed.

We want discussion. We want debate. We want to learn how to be better golfers. But we also want posters to support their statements with data and fact and not opinion. This will help us become better golfers. That is what this site is for.

[iacas]

48 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

We want discussion. We want debate. We want to learn how to be better golfers. But we also want posters to support their statements with data and fact and not opinion. This will help us become better golfers. That is what this site is for.

@Righty to Lefty likely cannot do those things because he does not have any data on his side.

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Why am I being brought up in this?

Because you two have a similar pattern, and because it serves as a public notice that you're on watch. We used to keep these things to ourselves, but all that led to was a one-sided display of playing the victim. People then felt even more justified. In making these things public, we get to share a bit of our side of the story - and the bad actor gets to see that they're not in the majority in thinking that their behavior is okay.

Your days here are numbered if you continue to behave the same way (or worse). You're not contributing meaningfully or positively to the forum.

Positive does not mean "agreeing."

I've said many, many times - including to you personally - that I like disagreement if the person can back it up, because if I'm shown I'm wrong I have an instant opportunity to upgrade my knowledge. That's how scientific people think. And it's how I act all the time - I'm always trying to argue things, even against myself, or against @david_wedzik, or whomever.

Positive does mean sticking to the topic, accepting and replying to the points made against you, and otherwise not behaving like a troll. You want to talk about how things would be "in person"? Well in person you'd not be allowed to ignore the points I've made, or others have made. But here, you just skate on by and then toss out a few straw men.

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Then for you to blast me to the entire forum that you are "watching me" is supposed to be progressive?

We "blasted" you by saying that we were watching you? Oh boy.

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

No one should be in here making their responses personal because if we were all in front of each other there wouldn't be any name calling.

You should re-read your PMs to me before you make comments like that.

Wow.

[saevel25]

The biggest issue is not being able to take criticism. People feel like a criticism is an attack on them. Good criticism, which occurs 99% of the time here, should be taken as a way to improve ones knowledge in golf.

Taking criticism is tough. I try my best not to take criticism as an attack. It's tough, we always want to defend ourselves even if we are wrong. It's tough to say, "You know what, I am wrong here."

Quote

Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.
- Winston Churchill

 

 

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

The biggest issue is not being able to take criticism. People feel like a criticism is an attack on them. Good criticism, which occurs 99% of the time here, should be taken as a way to improve ones knowledge in golf.

Taking criticism is tough. I try my best not to take criticism as an attack. It's tough, we always want to defend ourselves even if we are wrong. It's tough to say, "You know what, I am wrong here."

The more you learn to play golf, the more you learn to take criticism. If you can’t take it and criticize yourself or laugh at yourself, you won’t survive playing golf.

Personally, my attitude went from night to day.

Golf is a game (sport) of criticism...

Too bad he used multiple accounts though...

[chilepepper]

Rest assured there are other golf sites he can have his fun on. One I’m thinking of I couldn’t even get registered.....but I’m not single digit and I don’t have blades 🤪.