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Posted
It's my birthday, I'm officially old.

Great video. No idea why it hasn't gotten any responses. Everyone must be great at pitching.

"The expert golfer has maximum time to make minimal compensations. The poorer player has minimal time to make maximum compensations." - And no, I'm not Mac. Please do not PM me about it. I just think he is a crazy MFer and we could all use a little more crazy sometimes.

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Posted

I've been waiting for this video, was thinking about it just the other day actually when I was hitting a pitch shot on the course. A couple of questions.

BOUNCE - The goal of a pitch shot is to use the bounce. Executed properly, you can hit high pitch shots off a putting green with little to no damage because the leading edge doesn't contact the ground - the bounce on the sole does.

Where does the bounce of the club first strike the ground?

Does the club travel down still while hitting the ball, or does the leading edge of the club kinda squeeze in between the turf and ball, popping it up? What are the mechanics behind it that prevent you from bouncing the bounce on the ground and blading it? Can you do this with different degrees of bounce, or is say 10º+ too much from a tight lie? I can execute this shot well from a fluffy lie, but struggle when I'm on the fairway where the ball sits down on the ground. Being able to hit these high pitch shots over bunkers to a tight pin location is useful.
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Posted
Where does the bounce of the club first strike the ground?

Good question. Partly depends on the lie. If there's a lot of room under the ball (i.e. thick rough), the bounce might never hit the ground. If the lie is really tight it'll contact the ground just a fraction after the ball - almost at the same time. If the lie is one of those in between types, quite frankly, the beauty of bounce is that it can contact the ground before OR after the ball - you can hit the ball an inch or two fat from many lies and still get the same result.

So the answer is that it depends on the lie, but the goal is to contact the ground or whatever's directly under the ball a very, very short while after impact, with some "slop room" built in on most lies for hitting the ball a bit fat or thin. A good picture is to "thump" the ground under the ball. Not dig into it, but thump it with the bounce. Right under the ball. The little scuff mark will often go forward a few inches but it'll start, like a divot, basically right under the ball. Just might be tough to see since it won't really be a "divot" at all, just a scuff mark.
What are the mechanics behind it that prevent you from bouncing the bounce on the ground and blading it?

Bounce glides more than the leading edge will. But yes, if you hit really far behind it, you can bounce the club into the ball. So you develop the proper motion and that's never an issue - you can hit pitches off pavement and not bounce the clubhead into the ball. Same with the full swing - weight forward - to keep contact from being too far back.

Can you do this with different degrees of bounce, or is say 10º+ too much from a tight lie?

Stan Utley can attest to the fact that he hits his 58/12 wedge from the parking lot just fine.

I can execute this shot well from a fluffy lie, but struggle when I'm on the fairway where the ball sits down on the ground. Being able to hit these high pitch shots over bunkers to a tight pin location is useful.

A good drill is to practice hitting these shots with your right hand. Feel "float loady" and then you can't really "hit" at the ball, you can just turn through and let gravity get the club onto the ball.

  • Upvote 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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Posted
I love this video, Its the short pitches that I have been working on. It ensure that you do not hit the shot fat. I use this same swing for my irons shots and have hit my best irons shot ever.

Thanks for sharing the video, lets see some more!

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Posted
So what yardages does this apply to assuming a clean lie on the fairway - I'm guessing for the SW 75 yds? A PW, 100 yds?

Steve

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Posted
So what yardages does this apply to assuming a clean lie on the fairway - I'm guessing for the SW 75 yds? A PW, 100 yds?

Whatever length you make it... ??? I use the same technique from two yards to 80 yards or more. It depends on how far you take the club back and how fast and far you pivot through.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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Posted
Interesting take on the shot. I think I'll give it a couple trials in my practice this week.

Posted
Very good video and information... spot on in my view. I hesitate to say it but to the question of "how far" I can answer I have hit a lot of shots with mid-irons from 140-150 yards (with fairway lies) doing just this. Short pitches and chips are just smaller versions of the same motion. The control is great and conditions may well dictate this is the best choice for a shot. You guys look like right-handed Phil Michelsons with the smooth hinge and turn through the shot. And I love your use of the word gravity. Yeah, gravity keeps our shots from going as far as we might want, but it also is a key to learning how to feel a shot. The mistake I see most often is players who hit at the ball before letting gravity start to work its magic. They rush it, jerk through the turning point from backswing to forward swing, and flip it or fat it. Let's have a big cheer for gravity, a most important component of developing feel and good mechanics.
  • Upvote 1

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  • 1 month later...
Posted
Just tried the techniques from the video yesterday today. I used to pitch from back in my stance, but that's over. Also, I'm actually rotating my lower body with the turn rather than being stick rigid. The idea of letting gravity help bring the clubhead down was a great swing thought. Between those, I had a great pitching day today. When put in a 3/4 to full pitching swing, I finally broke the 55 yard barrier that I'd been unable to hit by gap wedge beyond. I was hitting 60 yards with a 3/4 swing, and up to 80. Can't wait to keep working on my pitching tomorrow.

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Posted
Basically the same as Phil Mick's hinge and hold technique video shows. Best way to chip/pitch in my opinion. Easy to control and hit consistently as long as you do not "chicken out" with your swing as I do sometimes. I hit a beautiful shot from 70 yards to within 2 feet this weekend. It is definitely a feel kind of shot so practice practice practice.

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Posted
Basically the same as Phil Mick's hinge and hold technique video shows.

Uh, no, not really. Half (or a third) of "Hinge and Hold" but no more than that.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Posted
What would you use for a 50y pitch and how far would you take back the hands? Surely you couldn't hit it 50y with that minimal hand and arm movement ike you used in the video? I'd imagine you'd have to be at least P3 to hit it that far. Or can you really develop that much power from a P2 position?

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Posted
What would you use for a 50y pitch and how far would you take back the hands? Surely you couldn't hit it 50y with that minimal hand and arm movement ike you used in the video? I'd imagine you'd have to be at least P3 to hit it that far. Or can you really develop that much power from a P2 position?

I'm pretty sure I go past P2 on a 10-yard flop shot. I can use this technique or feeling out to 70 yards if I want, sure. I don't typically opt for that choice that far out, but if the ball's sitting in the rough the feelings are virtually the same.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Posted
Uh, no, not really. Half (or a third) of "Hinge and Hold" but no more than that.

I also think it's similar to hinge and hold method. Could you elaborate a bit more why they are different?


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Posted
I also think it's similar to hinge and hold method. Could you elaborate a bit more why they are different?

Simply put, there's no attempt in my motion to "hold" anything.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Posted
I'm not a huge fan of the wall of the text at the end. I've seen a few demonstrative videos that have a follow-up to the lesson at the end of the video but they correlate each summarizing sentence with a clip or photo of it being done earlier in the video.

You guys should talk to the camera more too :)

(And no, I don't have any comments about the actual content in the video :P)

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  • Posts

    • In the 1970s and 1980s, Dean Knuth, who became known as the "Pope of Slope," created the handicap system as well as the course rating system. He consulted with the USGA through 2002, but hasn't really had a hand in the handicapping since then, and was not involved in the WHS. Suffice to say, he does not like the WHS, and he wrote an article expressing why:  https://www.popeofslope.com/world-handicap-system.html. The problem? His article… well, it's bad. Here is a brief (for me!) exploration of that article. Part 1 includes the bulk of his point, right up until the section labeled "The Par Pitfall," here: The handicapping system has seen almost no changes in the U.S. It's the rest of the world where they've seen the biggest changes. In the U.S., ESC was replaced by NDB, we have soft and hard caps, and we use 8/20 instead of 10/20 at 96%. Those are the only real changes. Dean will spend most of the rest of the time talking about par, but — and this cannot be stressed enough — the par is irrelevant. Its role in determining your playing or course handicap does three things only: It makes the score you have to shoot to "play to your handicap" make a lot more sense. It "bakes in" the changes players should have made but rarely did when playing from different tees. Through NDB, it defines the holes on which you can take a triple (or which you can take a gross bogey if you're on the + side of scratch). The calculation of your differential at the end is completely unaffected and does not involve par. Dean will spend a good amount of the time in this article talking about how par is "less precise" than the rating and slope, but he seems to miss the two points here: Par is an integer. If it helps him to think of it as 72.000000 or something, by all means, Dean… Par is used only to adjust another whole number: the strokes a player gets on the course. We don't give 10.4 strokes — a 10.4 index player might get 13, 10, 8, or whatever number of whole-number strokes.   The problem with this type of statement is that the "par handicap" could be "7" or "13" or "88" and except for affecting NDB, players competing against each other would have the same difference (except they'd still need to adjust for playing from different tees). Let's say a 10.4 and a 14.7 are playing a 71.5/127 course. Par is 72. (10.4 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 72 = 11.2 -> 11 strokes (14.7 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 72 = 16.0 -> 16 strokes -> this player gets 5 strokes Instead of 72, plug in 23 because it's your favorite number: (10.4 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 23 = 60.2 -> 60 strokes (14.7 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 23 = 65.0 -> 65 strokes -> this player gets 5 strokes They still get the strokes they deserve (5), but we've lost the meaning as players now get 60 strokes off a 10 handicap. Remove the course rating and… you're back at the same problem as we've had where players weren't doing the calculation properly, and we lose the first benefit of "playing to your handicap". An example of that, with a 12.3 index player playing on a 68.7/123 rated par 72 course. Properly: (12.3 * 123/113) + 68.7 - 72 = 10.1 -> 10 strokes Improperly: 12.3 * 123/113 = 13.4 -> 13 strokes If the player plays a "net even par" round of golf, he'll shoot 82 and 85. Here's why this makes sense: WHS: (82 - 68.7) * 113 / 123 = 12.2 differential Prior: (85 - 68.7) * 113 / 123 = 14.97 -> 15.0 differential The player "played to his handicap" with a net even par round in shooting the 82, which aligns with getting ten strokes, not 13. This makes WAY more sense and is in fact an IMPROVEMENT over the current system for two of the three reasons listed above: It more closely aligns the index and the score you have to shoot to "shoot your handicap" It bakes in players playing from different tees.   Par is not a factor in determining the differential in the WHS system, only the playing handicap. The only way it affects the differential is that it can award a triple bogey on a few more holes (or a gross bogey max to a few + handicappers playing shorter tees) in determining NDB. You can completely ignore the WHS system of calculating your playing handicap and your differentials — the calculation of which does not use par - is going to be almost exactly the same (again, differing only when you tripled a hole on which you wouldn't have gotten NDB but now do because you didn't do the subtraction part of the WHS course/playing handicap calculation). Or maybe it was because of the other three reasons listed above. Which were the reasons given to me back in 2017 and 2018 when I talked with some of the people responsible for helping to create the WHS. If the ease of adoption by other countries and regions, then that's a fourth reason. But, I didn't really hear much about it prior to the WHS being instituted. A similar step was also required when players played from different tees, yet this was frequently forgotten. Players used to playing the blue tees would move up to the whites and expect to keep their 13 strokes, and be dismayed and sometimes even angered and argumentative that they would only get 10. This literally makes no sense. There's no more or less rounding than in previous versions. The output of "HI * Slope/113" typically produced a decimal number, the output of "HI * Slope/113 + CR - Par" also produces a decimal number, and the output of "Score * 113/Slope" (which is unchanged) also produces a decimal number. Each are rounded just as they were before. No, Dean is way off base here. Even if you accept that "par is an approximation" (of course difficulty), it's not used as he suggests. A player playing a par-72 that's rated 75 will get more COURSE handicap strokes than a player playing a par-72 that's rated 67, but that makes sense. At the end of the round, their score is processed using the same old formula to get their differential as always. This is about where I start to wonder and worry about Dean's mental faculties at his nearly 80 years of age. It hasn't "gone away" - it's been built-in as he says, and I think it's fairly obvious that this is true. No it is not. It is what I've said above, which is what the USGA and R&A have said it is. I agree that the course rating is the "most accurate measure of the relative difficulty for the scratch golfer" (I mean, it's almost exactly the defeinition), and slope determines the relative difficulty between two levels of player. So, which of these formulas incorporates BOTH the CR and the Slope in determining a player's course handicap: a. (HI * Slope/113) + CR - Par b. (HI * Slope/113) Clearly A incorporates "the most accurate measure of the relative difficulty" (as well as the measure of the relative difficulty). Dean's favored formula did NOT include "the most accurate measure of the relative difficulty for the scratch golfer". A scratch golfer under Dean's preferred method could shoot an even par round of 72 and see a differential that ranged from +2.7 (75.4/140) to 5.5 (66.3/118) or something. Under the WHS, if they shoot net par, they're going to end up with about a 0.0 differential. No. Again, you could subtract any integer from the Course Rating (which again the WHS ADDS to the calculation in course/playing handicap that the older system did not) and get the same relative course handicaps for all players. Using par just helps it make the most sense to actual golfers. It's an integer… as are the scores we shoot and the pars of the holes we play. The addition of the "CR - Par" has almost no effect on a player's differential. Again, the only affect it would have is when NDB is applied, because there may be a few holes where they'd get a stroke that they do not. And even then, it requires the player to card a triple on that specific hole, and be among their 8 out of 20 counting scores, AND even then if it happens once a round in ALL of the eight rounds, it's about 1 stroke on their index (probably a bit less given that most slopes are > 113). This has nothing to do with "jumping in" and everything to do with the foundational reasons for adding (CR - Par). Dean sees it as "adding par" when he would more accurately see it as adding the Course Rating! Small point of order: this was not shown to be accurate. The 96% applied to all 10 scores almost perfectly offset the dropping of two middle scores. Some players indexes went up a little. Some went down a little. The net change was almost exactly 0. Yes, that's how math works. The change makes MORE sense, again, as a player shooting net par under the WHS has basically "shot their handicap". Shoot below net par and your handicap will likely go down. Shoot above it and it may go up a little (less chance of this than shooting under lowering it, though, of course). So? Half of the players who play a 72.5/72-par course will see their Course Handicap one higher than they had before the system and half will not! Also and again, players who play a course rated 68.7 par-72 will all see their course handicaps drop several strokes. That's just math, and the boundaries of rounding. Dean chose a 0.5 marker, but the same math is true at any level, because the HI already has a decimal, and the Slope/113 multiplier also tends to produce decimals. So, someone who previously had a 10.5 to 10.9 index will still be an 11, while the 10.0s to 10.4s will go up to 11s. But on another course where the decimals work out to 0.3 and 0.2… the same math applies. And on a course where the decimals work out to 0.8… players half of the players will get an "extra" stroke and half will not. This is just rounding. It's always been a part of the WHS. The point at which rounding occurs might move slightly (depending on the course and index in question) for half of the situations, but if you have a 10.0 and an 11.5… or a 10.5 and an 12.0… half of the time the higher handicapper will get the "extra" stroke, and half the time the lower handicapper will get the "extra" stroke. This is just how rounding works. Handicaps in match play are almost entirely unaffected. A 13 playing a 10 might now be a 10 playing a 7, but the difference is still the same size. You're subtracting out a constant (CR - Par) from both players. The (HI * Slope/113) remains the same. This makes no sense and Dean has absolutely failed to provide any basis for this "less accurate" while ignoring that the WHS ADDS the CR to the course handicap calculation. It is easier. Shoot net par and you've "played to your handicap." Yes, and what they say is both accurate and makes sense. The WHS method bakes in the "playing from different tees" and makes it easier to know what it takes to "play to your handicap." Those are my notes right up until "The Par Pitfall." Dean has yet to make a valid point in any of this blog post thus far. When I have the time, and feel like procrastinating a bit more like today, I'll continue with my response to this blog post. I respect what Dean did in creating the original handicap system and the course ratinga system. The course rating system is one of the most elegant solutions to a very complex problem that I have ever seen. Nothing done by the WHS changes that. The course rating system is relatively unchanged, and its application in the WHS is, again, MORE accurate by the inclusion of the Course Rating than the previous system, in addition to the other benefits. Dean deserves (and has been given) much credit for that. But, if this is how he thinks these days, Dean can remain Pope Emeritus but the Cardinals need to elect a new Pope.
    • Wordle 1,810 4/6* ⬛⬛⬛⬛🟦 ⬛🟦⬛⬛⬛ ⬛🟧⬛🟦🟧 🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧
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