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How to address a cheat (or call him out)


Elmer
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As addressed previously in another thread http://thesandtrap.com/t/68046/how-to-handle-a-cheater , my father is a cheater,

We are approaching my league's end of year get away trip and tournament. This year I won my flight, but lost the championship. There is also talk of nominating me as an officer. With that in mind I can no longer condone my father's cheating.

A little extra info. He does not cheat during league, regular season match play. But then again we are different handicaps, so we do not play matches against one another.

However when end of year or mid season tournament comes around he plays with his usually playing 4some, myself and 2 other guys. We all know his ways,

What he does is when he bogies or gasp-double bogies a hole he takes everyone's score (as he always drives and scores), he just waits a few holes to write his scores down.

After a few holes most likely everyone is no longer paying attention and he writes down his score to be a par.

Otherwise, he always has a ball in his pocket and therefore never looses a ball in the woods. What aides this is he does not mark his balls and plays random balls, so he has no clue what ball he uses. Therefore you find a titlest 2 and that is his!

I have told him countless times that golf is a humbling game and there is nothing wrong with having ups and down. However his ego, maybe subconsciously wont allow it.

There is no way that a person who shoots 4 over per 9 on his league course, goes to an course they never played before and shoots 2 over par! And if they do, they should be playing competitively.

The league does grown when he wins year after year.

Now that I am more confident with my game and feel I can compete, he is cheating against me, not just the league. before this I was a simply ultra hacker going out and shooting 100 and my handicap did not help. Now I can keep the ball in play and as a boggie golfer I can play right to my handicap.

It is not just as easy as calling him a cheat and telling him not to do it, because we have had that conversation.

I have considered refusing to play with him, however it took me along time to achieve a personal relationship with this individual and this is about the only time we spend together.

my first thought was to secretly keep his score on my card, as I always keep my score separate (putts, fairways etc). Then at the end of the round I can compare his to mine.

I could plan and simple point it out as after every home that he has not written his score down.

Or I can simple wait to see if I get elected an officer and then simply tell him, that his conduct can not be tolerated by me.

But in the end, we are both in the cart and both playing and he is cheating against me aswell as the entire league.

My ultimate fear is if I really call him out, he will quit and then I would lose the little time I already spend with him after a round.

Any suggestions?

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You have a few choices:

1. Β Sit down with him away from the course and just say, 'I really enjoy spending time with you on the course but people know you cheat and it's putting me in an awkward spot..." Β Then go from there.

2. Β Confront him on the course in some pointlessly dramatic fashion as you suggest. Β Create a situation where his only reaction will be defensive. Β I don't know him, but based on your fears, it's probably safe to say that this will probably cause him to quit.

3. Β Speak to an existing officer. Β Tell him that you and others know that your father is cheating and that because of your personal relationship you're not comfortable confronting him. Β Hopefully, that officer is discreet enough to pull your dad aside and say, "look, we've had some complaints accusations about your behavior and it can't continue."

4. Β Do nothing for now. Β Chances are when you become an officer, people will expect you to confront your father. Β This is pretty much what you don't want to do.

"No man goes round boasting of his vices,” he said, β€œexcept golfers."Β 

-- Det. Elk in The Twister by Edgar Wallace

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If you're in his 4 some, take responsibility for keeping score.Β  Encourage him to mark his golf balls so they can be easily identified and not picked up or mishit by others.

Basically you're trying to find ways to prevent your dad from cheatingΒ without hurting the relationship so you are limited toΒ trying passive things that will limit his opportunity to cheat.Β  You could also speak to his regular 4 some and ask them to assist you in ensuring he plays by the rules.

As a golfer you have an obligation to the field in a tournament to report a golfer that cheats.Β  As an officer of the club, you would potentially place yourselfΒ at risk of expulsion for doing nothing or allowing a family member to cheat in club tournaments.

Joe Paradiso

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If you're in his 4 some, take responsibility for keeping score.Β  Encourage him to mark his golf balls so they can be easily identified and not picked up or mishit by others.

Basically you're trying to find ways to prevent your dad from cheatingΒ without hurting the relationship so you are limited toΒ trying passive things that will limit his opportunity to cheat.Β  You could also speak to his regular 4 some and ask them to assist you in ensuring he plays by the rules.

As a golfer you have an obligation to the field in a tournament to report a golfer that cheats.Β  As an officer of the club, you would potentially place yourselfΒ at risk of expulsion for doing nothing or allowing a family member to cheat in club tournaments.

Yep, pretty much.

If you want to keep golfing with your dad, then do it in a leisurely round. Your dad should not be playing in any competitive matches if he continues to cheat. I can understand league rules that allow rolling the ball out of a bad lie, or not adhering to stroke and distance. Some leagues just don't want the hassle of playing strict rules. I get that, but everyone is playing by the same rules. Cheating outside of that should not be condoned. Its not fair to you, or the rest of the league you play in.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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I have never been a bashful person. I would just tell the culprit to stop cheating, or take a hike. I quit golfing with a nephew due to his cheating ways.

That said, you are in a different predicament, because the culprit is your father. I have this thought in the back of my mind, that perhaps your father would be on the proud side, that his son, a person he raised, is on the honest side of this situation. Have a sit down chat with him. What ever the out come of the chat, don't let this issue take a toll on your relationship with your father. It's not worth it. He's your Dad.

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It sounds like this has very little to do with how to deal with a cheater and much more with your relationship with your father.

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But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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I have never been a bashful person. I would just tell the culprit to stop cheating, or take a hike. I quit golfing with a nephew due to his cheating ways.

That said, you are in a different predicament, because the culprit is your father. I have this thought in the back of my mind, that perhaps your father would be on the proud side, that his son, a person he raised, is on the honest side of this situation. Have a sit down chat with him. What ever the out come of the chat, don't let this issue take a toll on your relationship with your father. It's not worth it. He's your Dad.

First off, I think this has everything to do with confronting a cheater, but is complicated by who the cheater is. Had the cheater been some random golfer, I would call them out and pray for the fury of golf G*ds to reign down upon them. However this is someone who I am tied to and while I can not golf with him, I would still encounter him on holidays.

That being said, the individual is very competitive and I dont know that proud of being called out by me would enter the equation

The problem is he learned to play golf by himself, on the course by himself and has never been called out by anyone "better' than him.

I guess I will have to keep track of his score and call him out when he is wrong.

If he puts up a stink I will have to call the others in our playing group and hope they make a stand.

In my Grom:

Driver-Taylormade 10.5 Woods- Taylomade 3 wood, taylormade 4 Hybrid
Irons- Callaway Big Berthas 5i - GW Wedges- Titles Volkey Β Putter- Odyssey protype #9
Ball- Bridgestone E6
All grips Golf Pride

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Why don't you try and keep score for everyone in the group. You could try something like "I have this new golf app on my phone and I want to try it out, ill keep score" you could even show off some of the new "features" of the app "we are currently all tied.... however after that tripleΒ bogie Dad is behind by 1".

Then what can he possibly say after the round when your scores don't match up?

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I would either drop out of the league, and limit playing with your dad to casual rounds, or decline the nomination to be an officer. Let someone else say something. There is no way I would risk the relationship over creative score keeping. Family is more important than golf.
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Sometimes it's just a matter if wording things in a way that can't offend, or at least, so it's not you that offends, Why not just say,... "Dad, a few of the guys think you might be a little bit forgetful sometimes when keeping score, I've never noticed, but if I get chosen as officer, ill do the scorekeeping then nobody can suggest otherwise!" and then change the subject quickly to his best shot if the day!

Gaz Lee

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If your dad truly loves playing golf and enjoys the tournaments you have then I don't think he would quit because you call him out.I imagine he prefers playing with you guys rather than playing alone especially since hes older person.

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That said, you are in a different predicament, because the culprit is your father. I have this thought in the back of my mind, that perhaps your father would be on the proud side, that his son, a person he raised, is on the honest side of this situation. Have a sit down chat with him. What ever the out come of the chat, don't let this issue take a toll on your relationship with your father. It's not worth it. He's your Dad.

Agree, this is more or less the way I would handle the situation. If my son were to tell me to stop cheating, I would be proud that he has: 1) a better memory than me; 2) strong convictions.

It sounds like this has very little to do with how to deal with a cheater and much more with your relationship with your father.

The relationship appears to have been distant, and he does not with to lose his current relationship. The only think I can say, is that his cheating might be forgetfulness. You know we older people have a few issues with remembering what we did the last 15 minutes. :whistle: Trust him more, and don't mar the relationship with potentially incorrect statements. Let him come to grips that golf is a game of integrity and honesty. You try your hardest to be honest and true to it. :beer:

First off, I think this has everything to do with confronting a cheater, but is complicated by who the cheater is. Had the cheater been some random golfer, I would call them out and pray for the fury of golf G*ds to reign down upon them. However this is someone who I am tied to and while I can not golf with him, I would still encounter him on holidays.

That being said, the individual is very competitive and I dont know that proud of being called out by me would enter the equation

The problem is he learned to play golf by himself, on the course by himself and has never been called out by anyone "better' than him.

I guess I will have to keep track of his score and call him out when he is wrong.

If he puts up a stink I will have to call the others in our playing group and hope they make a stand.

There is no difference between calling out someone else who cheats and your father, not matter what some tact is required. The other thing is you are not absolutely sure that he is cheating. You need to have him admit to it somehow. Bring up the topic that a lot of people seem to be cheating in the league. Maybe he'll say something like "Everyone cheats, I've given up being honest because of the mass cheating. . ." or something to that effect. The first thing is to find out if/why he cheats, you are only guessing that it's pride and ego.

I watch many players in the 8 to 15 handicap range who cheat. The ball gets kicked into a better lie, balls are mis-marked, balls get magically found when I'm pretty sure it hit the tree in another fairway but I did not really pay attention that much.

You need to make sure that he does not have some self righteous reason for cheating, or that he in fact is cheating.

The most tactful way to approach it is to take over the score keeping (after all you are now probably going to be an official of the league), and stay right by him when he is looking for his second shot. If he "secretly" pulls out another ball simply announce "Oh, you can't find it?" in a knowing and helpful tone.

Sometimes it's just a matter if wording things in a way that can't offend, or at least, so it's not you that offends, Why not just say,...

"Dad, a few of the guys think you might be a little bit forgetful sometimes when keeping score, I've never noticed, but if I get chosen as officer, ill do the scorekeeping then nobody can suggest otherwise!" and then change the subject quickly to his best shot if the day!

Wow, coming from you this is great. :beer:

:ping:Β  :tmade:Β Β :callaway:Β Β Β :gamegolf:Β Β :titleist:

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"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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Have 2 people in the group keep score, reconcile the scores every few holes.

Another way to highlight the forgotten scores is to ask what his score was and then announce your score as compared to his.

E.G. I was in a match, a par 5 my opponent hits a ball into the woods, I heard him hit it 3 more times, the next shot comes out of the woods onto the green and he 3 putted for a minimum of 8, assuming not moving of the ball in the woods etc. I parred the hole. He announced a 6, I then declared an eagle. He was adamant and asked how I made an eagle, Β I replied, "not sure, but I know I had 3 less strokes than you". We then proceeded to count strokes. He then got the message that others knew his scores in spite of what he said, the scores were adjusted to 8 and 5. No more issues after that. Without calling him a cheat I fixed the problem.

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Bob

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Have 2 people in the group keep score, reconcile the scores every few holes.

Another way to highlight the forgotten scores is to ask what his score was and then announce your score as compared to his.

E.G. I was in a match, a par 5 my opponent hits a ball into the woods, I heard him hit it 3 more times, the next shot comes out of the woods onto the green and he 3 putted for a minimum of 8, assuming not moving of the ball in the woods etc. I parred the hole. He announced a 6, I then declared an eagle. He was adamant and asked how I made an eagle, Β I replied I had 3 less strokes than you, and we proceeded to count strokes. He then got the message that others knew his scores in spite of what he said, the scores were adjusted to 8 and 5. No more issues after that. Without calling him a cheat I fixed the problem.

I'm very surprised that golf does not require "double scoring". We do it in Archery. I can even proudly say that two Olympic archers scored my target during nationals two years ago.

BTW, I like your story about your "eagle", good one.

:ping:Β  :tmade:Β Β :callaway:Β Β Β :gamegolf:Β Β :titleist:

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"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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You could go for the subtle route by getting him, as a gift, one of those bead counters to put on his golf bag, but it could go over his head.

Whenever I have a dispute with someone in a tournament as to what their score is, I always go back through the hole with them describing all of their shots.

"You hit one off the tee, then you hit a low worm-burner, followed by a chunked shot, and then hit a screamer that rolled up onto the green. You then three-putted for a seven."

I've only had one person who, after I went through this method with them, continued to "forget" shots on multiple holes afterwords. That person was directed to a rules official who then watched them like a hawk to "help them count". It's a bit more difficult when you are in a more casual tournament, but you can always double-score your group and make sure to count his strokes if he rides in the cart with you. Turn in both scorecards, but tell them to only count yours perhaps?

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You could go for the subtle route by getting him, as a gift, one of those bead counters to put on his golf bag, but it could go over his head.

Whenever I have a dispute with someone in a tournament as to what their score is, I always go back through the hole with them describing all of their shots.

"You hit one off the tee, then you hit a low worm-burner, followed by a chunked shot, and then hit a screamer that rolled up onto the green. You then three-putted for a seven."

I've only had one person who, after I went through this method with them, continued to "forget" shots on multiple holes afterwords. That person was directed to a rules official who then watched them like a hawk to "help them count". It's a bit more difficult when you are in a more casual tournament, but you can always double-score your group and make sure to count his strokes if he rides in the cart with you. Turn in both scorecards, but tell them to only count yours perhaps?


Or you could record their entire round in HD. . .

. . .then post it here and plenty of people will chime in, I'm sure. . . ;-)

:ping:Β  :tmade:Β Β :callaway:Β Β Β :gamegolf:Β Β :titleist:

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Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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Don't become an officer. Β It looks like this is a ploy to get you to talk to your dad. Β By the sounds of it, you already have had a discussion with him and it went nowhere. Β It's not worth it. Β Let someone else take care of it and continue to play honest golf.

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The only think I can say, is that his cheating might be forgetfulness. You know we older people have a few issues with remembering what we did the last 15 minutes.Β  Trust him more, and don't mar the relationship with potentially incorrect statements. Let him come to grips that golf is a game of integrity and honesty. You try your hardest to be honest and true to it.

Once again, if I ever commit a murder I want you on my jury.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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Note:Β This thread is 3192 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic.Β Thank you!

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