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A Math Problem


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Here's an annoying question (with a fairly simple solution).

Try to do this without looking it up on the Internet. After long enough, we'll highlight the best answer.

1/9th can be written as 0.1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111…

8/9ths can be written as 0.8888888888888888888888888888888888888…

(Where … means it continues infinitely.)

So:

If you add 1/9th and 8/9ths as fractions, you get 9/9, which is very clearly 1.

But if you add:

 0.1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111…
+ 0.8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888…
------------------------------------------------------------------
  0.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999…

So, what's wrong here?

(There are both easy and complex solutions.)

Happy 2015!

Or should I say Happy 2014.999…?

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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Essentially, 0.99999999999999999999999999999999... = 1.0, because the difference is 0.00000000000000000000000000000..., isn't it? I haven't done any advanced mathematics in a very long time, so I don't even know where to begin with real solutions. I might have been able to, once.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

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The answer is just that .9999999... = 1. IIRC we did it in a math class once. I think the proof involving limits and stuff like that is named after someone. (Trying to remember what I can without looking it up.)

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The answer is just that .9999999... = 1. IIRC we did it in a math class once. I think the proof involving limits and stuff like that is named after someone. (Trying to remember what I can without looking it up.)

Is it Taylor?

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

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Is it Taylor?

I think the Taylor Series is supposed to represent polynomials as a series. Not sure if his name is on other stuff.

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I think the Taylor Series is supposed to represent polynomials as a series. Not sure if his name is on other stuff.

No, the Taylor expansion can be used to write any function as a series of powers. The elements of a taylor series ARE polynomials, so we would not ned to use a Taylor series t represent a polynomial.  They are more used to represent transcendental functions like sine cosine, e^x, etc.

Those who said that .9999....= 1  are, of course correct.  Intuitively here is one way to look at it:

What happens if you subtract:

1.00000000

-.99999999

You will borrow from the 1, and all of the decimal places in the first number will b 9 except the last place, which is 10.  And so the answer is a series of zeros with a 1 in the last place.

When we now shift to the repeating .99... , if you think about doing the same thing what happens is that you never get to the place value that would get the 10, and hence there is no place value that can have the 1.  So the answer is just a series of zeros.

More formally, it is almost trivially easy to do a delta-epsilon limit proof that the limit of the sum of 9*10^-n for positive integer n's as n approaches infinity is 1.  Because no matter how small a non-zero number you can name, I can name a place value which would make the difference between 1 and the sum smaller than your number.  And that is the essential definition of a limit.

People sometimes get hung up on the fact that the difference between the limit and 1 gets as close to 0 as we want but never "gets there".  But that is a limitation on our ability to grasp something abstractly that never occurs in nature, i.e, infinity.

There is something called the Hilbert Hotel "paradox" about a hotel with an countably infinite series of hotel rooms that is full.  A countably infinite number of new guests arrive.  All full up, right?  Nope.  Move the guest in #1 to #2.  Move the guest in #2 to #4, Move the guest in #3 to #6.  Continue moving each original guest from room n to room 2n.  Now all of the odd numbered rooms are empty.  Since there are a countably infinite number of them and there are a countably infinite number of new guest we can accommodate everyone.

Another weird infinity quirk, this time with an infinity that is not countable, is that we can prove (trivially, once you know how) that every pair of line segments has exactly the same number of points in each segment.  Yup, this "-" has exactly the same number of points on it as a 93,000,000 mile line going from the Earth to the Sun.  This is another one that is both completely non-intuitive yet so easy to demonstrate.  Intuition is a bad guide in the world of infinities.  Like who would have imagined that there are the same number of integers as there are rational numbers, relying on intuition?

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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Well, I sort of figured maybe @turtleback would answer.

I've always preferred the one where you say:

Suppose x = 0.999999999…

100x = 99.9999999…

100x = 99 + 0.9999999…

100x = 99 + x

99x = 99

So… x = 1 = 0.999999999…

Another way of thinking about it: 0.111 repeating is an approximation of 1/9th. 1/9th is the true form.


Basically human beings have a hard time comprehending "infinite."

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Well, I sort of figured maybe @turtleback would answer.

I've always preferred the one where you say:

Suppose x = 0.999999999…

100x = 99.9999999…

100x = 99 + 0.9999999…

100x = 99 + x

99x = 99

So… x = 1 = 0.999999999…

Another way of thinking about it: 0.111 repeating is an approximation of 1/9th. 1/9th is the true form.

Basically human beings have a hard time comprehending "infinite."

Yeah, that is the way we taught the kids to convert between infinitely repeating decimals and fractions.  The problem is that while it demonstrates something that is true, it is not really a proof.  It is not a proof because it intrinsically assumes that you can extend concepts and operations to infinite things that you have really only proven for finite things.  [generic you, not Erik you]

In your demonstration the unproven point is that the .9999... at the end of the 99.999...  is equal to the .999... you started with.  It is intuitively clear but you really are assuming that arithmetic operation on infinite decimals work the same as on finite numbers.  It turns out that largely they do, but that is something that technically needs to be proven, not assumed.  But of course it still works wonderfully as a demonstration, and only a math geek would quibble even the slightest amount.

The study of infinities and infinite sets was an area of math I particularly enjoyed back in the day.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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Why did you have to bring up Taylor Series. That class in college gave me all sorts of trouble. My worst subject in the world of math, at least of the classes I took. Besides that, yea on the surface it's tough not to just see the surface and be confused. Really cool example of math thought.

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Basically human beings have a hard time comprehending "infinite."

Even many mathematically inclined people have a bad intuition for the infinite. In my favorite class to teach, one of my favorite lectures to give is where we introduce infinite cardinal numbers. Showing that the set of natural numbers is infinite doesn't surprise students. Showing that integers are equal in size to that surprises some. Then showing that the set of rationals is equal in size surprises some, many of whom want to object (and are welcome to do so during lecture, of course): it seems so obvious that the naturals are strictly smaller than the rationals, but they aren't. And yet, they're equal in size. And then showing that the real numbers are strictly larger than the naturals... I love looking out at the classroom during the proof and seeing the looks on their faces. The material isn't tough; they all follow the lecture. But the consequence of the proof gets them.

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I stopped reading at the word "Math"...


So, you got an "A" then!

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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I always resented the terminology of math. I needed a history class on the development of math language and did not know it at the time. I had to take mechanical engineering classes where they transferred energy into even more types of descriptors before my light bulb came on. Its like the question of 1/9 being converted from a unit relationship to a failed division of the units expressed in decimal form, where the extra leftover parts keep getting rolled forward. People then use the word infinite, but I was always thinking that its screwed up and you should not use the number. But then I found the Robert Wuhl historical entertainment shows insightful, which pretty much means I should stay far away from chalkboards.

Tom R.

TM R1 on a USTv2, TM 3wHL on USTv2, TM Rescue 11 in 17,TM udi #3, Rocketbladez tour kbs reg, Mack Daddy 50.10,54.14,60.14, Cleveland putter

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I stopped reading at the word "Math"...


Yeah. I lost interest when I realized that this had nothing to do with a quick way of adding numbers in relation to par. Besides, I'm only working on a few hours of sleep after watching OSU pull off a major upset against #1 ranked Bama. Sorry. I had to slip that in.

:-D

- Shane

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[QUOTE name="colin007" url="/t/78942/a-math-problem#post_1090121"] I stopped reading at the word "Math"...[/QUOTE] Yeah. I lost interest when I realized that this had nothing to do with a quick way of adding numbers in relation to par. Besides, I'm only working on a few hours of sleep after watching OSU pull off a major upset against #1 ranked Bama. Sorry. I had to slip that in. :-D

Slip noted and added to my math for next time!

Tom R.

TM R1 on a USTv2, TM 3wHL on USTv2, TM Rescue 11 in 17,TM udi #3, Rocketbladez tour kbs reg, Mack Daddy 50.10,54.14,60.14, Cleveland putter

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