The Jimenez-Dufner-Daly British Open Shamble

This morning on the first hole of the Open Championship's second day, Miguel Jimenez, Jason Dufner and John Daly all hit their ball to about the same spot in the fairway.  So they were all hitting their second from about the same spot.  (Like a shamble.)  Then confusion occurred.

Dufner and Jimenez had teed off first, and their respective balls ended up a few inches apart, side by side, in the fairway.  Daly teed off and his ball hit Dufner's ball, moving it forward about three feet.  After all three had teed off we had Jimenez' ball closest to the tee where it was originally hit, then Daly's ball about 18 inches ahead of Jimenez' ball and a few inches to the left, and Dufner's ball about three feet ahead of Jimenez' ball where it stopped after being hit by Daly's ball.

I'm not sure whether the golfers knew that Daly's ball had hit another ball, or a cameraman told them about it as they walked up the fairway.  But when they approached the balls the threesome began discussing their lies with the cameraman and how to reposition the balls.  (Actually, Jimenez was doing most of the talking.  Dufner was waiting patiently.  Daly stood to the side with a scowl on his face waiting to hit his second.)  The conversation sounded like the Abbott and Costello "Who's on First?" routine:   Which ball hit the other?  Whose ball got hit?  Where did it end up?  So Daly's ball hit this ball?  Whose ball got hit?

After a few minutes of confused discussion by his partners, Daly's impatience got the best of him.  He stepped up, announced that his ball was in play where it lay, and hit his second shot (even though it lay forward of Jimenez' ball).  After hitting, Daly walked up towards the green and was out of the picture.  Then Jimenez, with an incorrect understanding of what happened, marked his ball and dropped it where he thought it should be.  (This was wrong.)  He had picked up his ball marker and was addressing the ball to hit his second when the booth announcers called down to the cameraman and had them tell Jimenez that he'd incorrectly dropped his ball.  At about this time a rules official showed up.  (I'm assuming it was a rules official authorized to make a ruling.) The rules official, the cameraman, Jimenez and Dufner discussed the situation for a couple more minutes.  (Meanwhile Daly was up by the green, probly halfway through his second cigarette by then.)

After hearing and understanding the correct explanation from the cameraman, Jimenez replaced his ball to the spot of his mark (which he had taken out of his pocket and put back on the fairway when the booth called down and suggested that he not hit his second yet).  Then Dufner moved his ball to the correct position.  Finally, after several minutes of delay, Jimenez and Dufner hit their second shots.  This raises several rules questions for me.

First, I think Daly and Dufner are in the clear.  Sure, Daly played out of turn, but there's no penalty in that.  And Dufner waited until he understood the situation before moving his ball to the correct spot.  (He moved it, rather than dropping it, which I believe is the correct procedure.)  Jimenez, on the other hand, has a couple of issues going on.

1) Should Jimenez be penalized for moving his ball back two feet?  (His ball was not hit by Daly's drive.  It lay where he hit it.)

2) Does it matter that Jimenez acted upon the information provided by the cameraman?  (Apparently the cameraman got it wrong.  He *should* have told the threesome that Dufner's ball was the one that got moved.)

3) Does it matter that Jimenez dropped his ball instead of repositioning?  (I'm assuming that it's correct to reposition the ball rather than drop it.)

4) Is some sort of penalty assessed to Jimenez for replacing his ball marker after he'd picked it up and put it in his pocket?  (I don't think the rules official saw him replace the ball marker)

5) Was the rules official correct in having Jimenez move his ball back to it's original position (as indicated by the ball marker which Jimenez put back) from where Jimenez had improperly dropped it?  Or was Jimenez' ball in play where he dropped it, perhaps with penalty strokes assessed?

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I apologize in advance for the rather long post and multiple questions.  But the Jimenez-Dufner-Daly shamble was just a total clusterf**k, giving rise to a number of rules questions.

I too, don't think Jimenez can be penalized for being provided incorrect information, he acted with the best information that they had at the time.  If the rules official told him to move it back, i don't think a penalty would assume there either.

Yeah, that seems fair.  I mean, since he couldn't see his ball from the tee box he'd have to rely on what the cameraman told him.  And if the rules official told him to replace his ball to the original spot, I guess that would be okay as well.

But what about picking up his marker?  When you've picked up your marker and you realize you shouldn't have, is it okay to put it back to the point where you think it should be?

And just for the sake of completeness, if it had been Jimenez' ball that was moved by Daly's drive, would it be okay to drop your ball where it should have been?  Or should he have placed it there?

Thanks for the answers!

If he took his information from a CAMERAMAN, then he probably DESERVES to be penalized. Place is crawling with officials and pace of play was pretty abysmal from what I understand, so waiting for one shouldn't have made a difference. I thought, only on the green, is a ball moved back to it's original position if struck by another ball? In casual play, you wouldn't even KNOW if your ball was hit or hit another ball so it's played as it is. It's only under these conditions with acres of coverage would it show up.

Can a cameraman give advice , and can a golfer use that advice under the rules?

Not sure I would consider this advice.

A rules official commented that any resource is available to them to get the correct call. Even the gallery. There was a situation a few years ago where a ball was stuck in a tree. Somebody had a camera with a zoom lens, he photographed the ball and after enlarging it on the viewer, the player was able to identify it as his ball. That changed it from a lost ball to an unplayable lie.

Whether or not a cameraman can "give advice" is beside the point. WHY would you take advice from a cameraman? Get the official over to interpret the testimony of the cameraman and THEN make the decision. A couple of minutes wait, in what is a normally glacial pace anyway on tour, sure beats the chance of being DQ'd.

1)  No.  The rules official wrongly told him it was his ball that was moved.

2) It was the rules official who acted upon the information given by the cameraman, and the rules official got it wrong.  Whether the cameraman got it wrong or the rules official misunderstood was not 100% clear.  It appeared to me the cameraman did a poor job of explaining it.

3)  It would only be correct to replace the ball if you knew exactly where the ball had lain. So dropping was the right procedure.  They just were having the wrong person drop.  You were incorrect that Dufner placed his.  Dufner also dropped because they did not know the exact spot the ball lay when it was struck and moved.

4) Nothing wrong with what Jimenez did.  Once he realized that his ball was moved in error, he knew he was eventually going to be asked to put it back.  So he put a mark at the location he knew the ball to be before he moved it.

5)  Jimenez's ball was in play when he dropped it, but 20-6 gave the player ( and the rules official) the authority to correct the mistake and have the ball put back.

It was confusing, but in the end, they got it right, thanks to the TV-rules official watching the replay and then calling down to the on-course rules official to tell him he was, through no fault of his own, getting it wrong.

My take.

Daly was ok. Whether or not his ball had hit another, he could play it as it lay. There is no penalty for playing out of turn.

Duffner was correct to wait until he found out which ball had been moved.

Jiminez initially, did not know or have virtual certainty that his ball had been moved so he should have played it as it lay.

Having picked it up he incurred a 1 stroke penalty. If he knew exactly where his ball had been, he should have replaced it. If not he should have dropped it (as he did). The ball is now in play but in the wrong place.  But he could correct the error under 20-6 without further penalty.

As it was determined that it was moved he correctly replaced it on its original spot (which the referee deemed to be accurate I guess).

Edit:

I was typing this as the full explanation above was being posted, so wasn't aware of the involvement of the referee. But I think I got it right except for the one stroke penalty which he wouldn't get because he was under the referee's instruction.

Thanks guys.

@wadesworld:  Thanks for the correction.  I typed up that account from memory (no replay yet), and hadn't realized that a rules official was there and told Jimenez to move his ball.  I thought he (Jimenez) acted on the information from the cameraman, and then put his marker back down as the rules official was walking up to the scene.

Note. They are no longer called 'rules officials', they are Referees.

I was up @ 4 - o'clock an d watched it liv e.

Dufner tee'd off first.

Then, Jiménez hit his shot, it appeared to me, his ball also bumped Dufner's ball.

From the camera angle, they appeared only three or four inches apart, inline with each other.

It was only a brief moment the camera was on them once they came to rest.

None of the announcer's made any comment about the ball making contact, so I assumed maybe they did not.

Then Daly hit and his ball hit one of the balls.

When the players approached the fairway and sorted out who's was who, Jiménez prepared to hit first.

He had club in hand, went through routine, then address his ball, and then the rule's official stopped play.

That's when all the calamity started.

It honestly made me laugh and the moment seemed like a "Three Stooges" golf episode.

What perfect characters with Daly (Curly), Jiménez (Moe) and Dufner (Larry)   Perfect Cast......

Club Rat

But is Referee the proper Royal and Ancient term?

/jk.  Referee is what I should have said.

That's funny.

jimenez had understood his ball was mooved yet didnt know precisely where it should lie.

so droping as close as possible is the correct procedure. you replace only is you have good info on where it should lie.

so no problem here.

then he learns that he was misinformed and corrects this. no problem. no ball mark is needed. marking the ball is required under certain circomstances. (basically when you need to replace the ball in the identical lie, here is not the case).

no problem I think for all of this.

even if jimenez had hit his ball once dropped I think he had almost certainty that his ball was moved and acted accordingly. no penalty.

One thing I found interesting is that Duffner did not drop his ball until after Jimenez hit from a few inches away from where Dufner's ball was before Daly's ball hit it. This made sense from the perspective that Dufner's ball might have interfered with Jimenez's shot (at least visually) but it also made it possible that Dufner's dropped ball could have rolled into Jimenez's divot (which was not there when Dufner's ball came to rest originally. Could Dufner have insisted on taking his drop to replace his ball before Jimenez played his 2nd shot and then marked it had Jimenez requested? Would it have just been rub of the green had Dufuner's dropped ball rolled into Jimenez's divot? I know that you can recreate your original lie when you have to mark in the bunker and a player who plays first messes up your original lie, but it seems Dufner might have forfeited that option by not dropping before Jimenez hit (even though this is what the referee may have instructed). There seems to be a lot of hair splitting on whether you know the correct position with enough certainty to replace a ball or have to drop. Had there been better communication I think they could have figured out where Dufner's ball was originally within an inch or two, yet he took a drop. When they replaced Jimenez's mistaken drop after he had picked up the marker of where he incorrectly moved from, they could have been off by an inch, but they still had him replace it as opposed to dropping again. Sure, maybe he was able to find the hole the tee that he marked with created, but even with that, it seem unlikely that he would put the ball back in the EXACT same position. (My guess is that most of us are off by a blade of grass or two every time we mark and replace a ball).