7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

A lot of folks here are very shut at the top.

So are some Tour players. Heck, I had a very good golfer trying out for the college team last year whose clubface pointed BEHIND him at the top. Not toward the sky more than you want, but literally to his the camera's left filmed down the line. Wasn't a student of mine at all. Returned the clubface in almost the same position (slightly right pointing) every time. Very good clubface control.

I don't know that I agree with you that "a lot of folks here" are anything. Never mind the fact that I have no idea what "a lot" means to you.

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

As far as the semantics point,  you have to admit clubface control is a difficult thing to describe.

Clubface Control: doing what's necessary to return the clubface to a desirable position at impact.

I found that pretty easy to describe.

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

However I would posit that things are happening so fast at the bottom that we almost truly get a sense of them from memory more than we actual CONTROL the exact alignment at impact.

"Control" doesn't have to be "active" nor does it have to be "at the bottom" of the swing. Like I said, you're seeming to take it more as "manipulation." That's not it.

You're all kinds of off-base here.

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

I know when my six iron will be a little right without looking up. That's experience. Memory and learning.

In fact no golfer truly has control.  Pros do well but they do not have control.

Uhhh… no. You're wrong.

Good players do things that help them return the clubface to a desirable position at impact. Bad golfers do things that hinder their ability to do so.

3 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

@iacas This sounds like an awesome experiment! I'm gonna try this tomorrow if I get out to the practice tee. Curious, how did you do when you did it? Is this something you thought of? I don't believe I've ever come across this test.

I striped two over the flag. This is one of the reasons why I've always been a pretty good golfer. It's also why I was a good hitter in baseball - I could put the ball between the first and second basemen if that was my goal (say, a runner on second base) more often than not, and much more often than most other players.

I generally keep my ball inside the ropes.

I don't know if I came up with it. I'm sure someone's done it before me. I don't recall reading about it anywhere, if that means anything (it doesn't to me - almost everything is recycled). "Everything is a Remix."

As kids we used to have our buddy yell "low fade" during our backswing and then we'd have to hit that shot.

The other day I'd say "left" or "right" or "straight" to try to train one of my college golfers to feel what those things felt like, by actively creating them in the middle of his swing. That's NOT what "control" means - he was learning what they felt like. Because before that, he'd hit a duck hook (started way left) and then a big block… and he'd say they felt almost the same.

We eventually arrived at him setting up with a square clubface and then feeling that he holds it off a little through impact. That works much better - for him - than what he was doing previously: setting up with a right-pointing clubface and trying to time his "release."

Quick story about clubface control which I'm sure many of you have already heard. When Nicklaus hit that famous 1-iron on 17 in '72 he said he felt he took the club back a little too shut and had to hold it off more coming into impact. That's an example at obviously a high level. Some players just have a better sense of the sweetspot than others.

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

In a good swing you don't CONTROL the face.  Face angle consistency at impact is exactly that.  It stems from consistency of all aspects and swingpath really affects this.

Anyone selling the idea that you CONTROL the face to me is being semantically inaccurate.

You're misinterpreting what Key #5 is about, @iacas already replied to you but it's not about "manipulating" the face during the swing.

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

A lot of folks here are very shut at the top. 

Where? Mine is (by design a bit) but I don't see it with most people that post their swings. Also not everyone that posts their swings is a 5SK student.

Being a little shut is a lot better than being open. This is mostly my opinion, not something from 5SK.

12 hours ago, iacas said:

It's not about the contact. If it hooked 20 yards, you probably failed. Key #5 is about clubface control, not solidness of contact.

Oh I know I failed it haha! I planned on the hook, so it ended up about where I wanted it, but I knew I wasn't going to keep it straight.

9 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

 I think I have gotten fairly good at spotting a hook or a straight push coming on mid way through the downswing. 

While not much I can do mid swing clubface wise that would prevent it but I instinctively let up on 'pressure' to minimize damage. I still hit hooks and straight pushes regularly but not as many result in jail or OB as they used to. Definitely a learned instinct.

This is me.  I am screaming "NO!" as I hit the ball when I know it's a bad swing.  I can't change anything mid-swing.  I have to stay committed.

2 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

If nothing else, this blog entry and challenge had me thinking about and working on key #5 this morning.

How my wrists hinge throughout the take-away and backswing seems to control what the club head does - more so than trying to manipulate the rotation. It just kind of happens naturally (not saying any of what's happening is right ).

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

There's a lot of factors that contribute to your clubface control, not just your hands and wrists.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

There's a lot of factors that contribute to your clubface control, not just your hands and wrists.

Yeah, super strong, a lot more rotated @ impact no?

1 hour ago, nevets88 said:

Yeah, super strong, a lot more rotated @ impact no?

What I was talking about is that your mechanics affect how the clubface returns to impact, not just your hands and wrists. I wasn't specifically referring to this test.

As to your question, yea that's how I would attempt to do it with the super strong grip.

Damn I keep forgetting to do this, have to do it tomorrow.

On 9/14/2017 at 11:42 AM, billchao said:

I'll test this sometime soon, but my gut says no.

I was right. Strong grip started on my target line and drew about 15 yards left of target, which actually isn't much different than my normal miss. Weak grip pushed right of my target line and held its line with maybe a slight fade at the end, 15 yards right of target. Funny how I use two extremely different grips and hit equal but opposite misses. Path was consistent at least but that's not Key #5.

I wonder if that means I should be playing a weaker grip because it aligns more with my path. I've tried learning clubface control in the past by sticking an alignment stick out in the range and trying to curve balls around it, but I can't hit a pull-fade with any consistency. I can generally hit the ball left or right of the stick on command but anything left of the stick is not very playable.