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Is There Any Non-Anecdotal AimPoint Data?

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35 minutes ago, klineka said:
  • Making the putt
  • Knowing the slope so you know where to aim to give yourself a greater chance to make the putt

Are two completely different things that you seem to be combining into one.

Let's pretend Erik and I are exactly equally skilled at reading slope (we aren't) he would still make more putts than me even if we had the exact same aiming point/slope reading because he is a more skilled putter than I am. He hits more putts on-line and with the correct speed than I do.

I am not combining them at all, but my wording was maybe confusing. I just want to know if I tested a great AimPoint putter how well would they do on a test of measuring slopes on a green (not making putts). I said well enough to make a putt because assuming a perfect putt there is some room for error.

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1 hour ago, jshots said:

Right, because this entire post wasn't asking for data so I could make a decision on where to spend my limited golf budget. The post is titled "Is there any non anecdotal aimpoint data?" and nearly every single post is "IT WORKS FOR ME, NOTHING WILL CONVINCE YOU!"

Maybe because it exists, but as students, most people don't have access to it? So in their attempt to clarify the process and give you feedback, they give you what information they do have, which apparently isn't good enough for you.

I've become a better putter with AimPoint, as have many others who have attested here and other in similar topics on TST. I've also seen plenty of other people learn the system from being a part of clinics so I know it works.

1 hour ago, jshots said:

I just want to know how AimPoint helps someone hole more putts.

It helps you read slope.

1 hour ago, jshots said:

Looking at the few Tour Pros who use AimPoint they don't seem to be stacked towards the top of SG putting. Why is that?

Because green reading is only one facet of putting? It might even be the least important part of putting on the PGA Tour because of all the mapping.

10 minutes ago, jshots said:

I am not combining them at all, but my wording was maybe confusing. I just want to know if I tested a great AimPoint putter how well would they do on a test of measuring slopes on a green (not making putts). I said well enough to make a putt because assuming a perfect putt there is some room for error.

This is where I feel like you just don't get it. The object isn't to identify the slope to six decimal places. I can be off on my read by half a percent and it will still be good enough for putting. How accurate would you be on a test of measuring slopes on a green using your methods?

Look, if you're confident in your green reading skills (or you play somewhere all the time and you have the greens mapped or memorized) and you don't feel like it's worth the investment, then don't take the class. I don't know what else to tell you. I've never met anyone that has taken the class and regretted it.

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19 minutes ago, jshots said:

I am not combining them at all, but my wording was maybe confusing. I just want to know if I tested a great AimPoint putter how well would they do on a test of measuring slopes on a green (not making putts). I said well enough to make a putt because assuming a perfect putt there is some room for error.

I think you'd be surprised.  I know a single example isn't proof, but I was talking to a friend, a really solid woman player, about Aimpoint after a round of golf.  Just to demonstrate, I took our little digital level out of the trunk of the car, set it on the ground in front of me, stood back up and said "this is 1% right to left".  We bent down and saw the level indicating 0.9%.  I don't claim to be great at sensing slopes, but I'm decent.

If you go back to post #28, you can read @iacas experience with Aimpoint students reading breaks to 10% of the "correct" line, where before Aimpoint they were WAY off with their reads.

 

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1 hour ago, jshots said:

My concern is with measuring slope. @iacas if I put you on a green where I knew all the slopes and tested you, what percentage would you be accurate enough to make the putt? How long and how much practice did that take?

I actually did this with @iacas at the 2017 Newport Cup on the Mid South putting green before the round. 

I wanted to make sure my level was accurate because the new shoes we had received were giving me a little different feel than my old shoes. He was dead on with all the measurements. (I was impressed ;-))

It just took a short practice session to re-calibrate with my new shoes.

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1 hour ago, jshots said:

Right, because this entire post wasn't asking for data so I could make a decision on where to spend my limited golf budget. The post is titled "Is there any non anecdotal aimpoint data?" and nearly every single post is "IT WORKS FOR ME, NOTHING WILL CONVINCE YOU!"

Mark Sweeney isn't going to share all of the data he has, but I've seen a good bit, and given you some of my own data, which you seem to have ignored.

Obviously, average golfers aren't going to have great data, because they likely didn't track every round super precisely before and after to see how many strokes they've saved putting before and after, and even if they did, it wouldn't be great data because it's just ONE golfer. Plus, you couldn't isolate any other putting changes/improvements/etc. that they had made over that time period.

You're asking for something that can't really be answered except by a few people. But it's also just f***ing common sense, too, man. If you can more accurately read a green, you can be a better putter. It's pretty simple.

1 hour ago, jshots said:

I just want to know how AimPoint helps someone hole more putts.

By allowing them to more accurately read greens.

1 hour ago, jshots said:

My concern is with measuring slope. @iacas if I put you on a green where I knew all the slopes and tested you, what percentage would you be accurate enough to make the putt? How long and how much practice did that take?

I'm much more accurate than I am using "my eyes" or "everything breaks toward Rae's Creek" or whatever. That's the entire point.

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On 4/7/2019 at 4:31 PM, boogielicious said:

People who read the traditional way, from behind the ball, then behind the pin and maybe even plum bob take way longer.

What method does Bryson DeChambeau use?

His method seems pretty fast. I'm going to use that. 

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16 minutes ago, coachjimsc said:

I actually did this with @iacas at the 2017 Newport Cup on the Mid South putting green before the round. 

I wanted to make sure my level was accurate because the new shoes we had received were giving me a little different feel than my old shoes. He was dead on with all the measurements. (I was impressed ;-))

Yea, he's good - I don't question his reads. Last time we played together I had a 30 footer for par and right before I went to putt, he asks me what I got. I said a 2, and he said it was closer to a 2.5. So I made a slight adjustment and holed it 😃

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5 hours ago, jshots said:

what percentage would you be accurate enough to make the putt?

You're a better player than I am, so this might not be as applicable to you as to me, but good results don't necessarily mean holing the putt: In my experience (I know, anecdotal data--sorry), part of the benefit is leaving me with a much easier second putt.  A much better first putt means an easier second putt, and fewer 3-putts.

5 hours ago, jlbos83 said:

I wouldn't be worried about making the putts, certainly not at first.  But getting the ball significantly closer to the hole would be nice.

This.  At least for my skill level.

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Lol I feel like I'm frustrating some people here.

Let me be clear. I'm interested in Aimpoint. If I had unlimited time and money I would do it tomorrow, maybe I still will one day. The main reason I chose not to do it is that I'm already a fairly good putter and felt my money was probably better spent on a driving range card.

I spent 30 min or so trying to measure grade with my feet, and I wasn't even close. I figured it would take a lot of practice to get that right for probably like less than 1 putt per round, and even if I could make gains with a lot of practice I felt like I could probably make similar gains just by putting that extra time into my regular putting practice.

❤️ 

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14 minutes ago, jshots said:

Lol I feel like I'm frustrating some people here.

Let me be clear. I'm interested in Aimpoint. If I had unlimited time and money I would do it tomorrow, maybe I still will one day. The main reason I chose not to do it is that I'm already a fairly good putter and felt my money was probably better spent on a driving range card.

I spent 30 min or so trying to measure grade with my feet, and I wasn't even close. I figured it would take a lot of practice to get that right for probably like less than 1 putt per round, and even if I could make gains with a lot of practice I felt like I could probably make similar gains just by putting that extra time into my regular putting practice.

❤️

I'm not going to tell you how to spend your money, but I would generally recommend AimPoint, because it's a one-time expense and you then "own" that knowledge for the rest of your life.

Green reading is an SV③ skill. It has a high "O-Value."

Do what you want, but again, you've seemingly ignored the only actual data provided in this topic.

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Just now, jshots said:

The main reason I chose not to do it is that I'm already a fairly good putter and felt my money was probably better spent on a driving range card.

I thought I was a fairly good putter (and by most standards I was ok), and then I bought the DVD (haven't taken a course) and realized that there is great merit in this system. I haven't bought a level, or even got a good feel with my feet at all, but putting a value to a break on a putt is much better than not.

Example pre AimPoint: This 20 foot putt looks like it breaks about 3 feet left to right. Aim there, speed is correct, still 4 feet away from the hole (high or low depending on how it looks).

Example with AimPoint: This 20 foot put is left to right. Measure. Assess a value (even with a good deal of inaccuracy). Use this system to pick the point of aim. Speed correct and I am within 1.5 feet.

The biggest thing with the system for me is that it eliminates the tricks that my eyes play on me. Since I am still learning I like to look at the putt as I did previously, then AimPoint it after. It is amazing how many times the putt looks completely straight but definitely isn't or vice versa. It sounds like you can't be convinced that it works. Also 30 minutes trying to measure grade with your feet is nothing if you don't have the feedback of a level (which I still don't but the system is working nonetheless)

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Does anyone here have any leg length discrepancy that uses AimPoint?  

Mine is not severe.  I never notice it in everyday life.  One leg is slightly shorter, I think less than 1/2”, but it causes me to run an EVA insole in one of my cycling shoes.  Only sport that needs it.

Just wondering if anyone knows if this will impact how well the system works.

John

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4 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

Does anyone here have any leg length discrepancy that uses AimPoint?  

Mine is not severe.  I never notice it in everyday life.  One leg is slightly shorter, I think less than 1/2”, but it causes me to run an EVA insole in one of my cycling shoes.  Only sport that needs it.

Just wondering if anyone knows if this will impact how well the system works.

John

Aimpoint will work even with one leg shorter than the other.   You get your feel when you calibrate.  

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6 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

Mine is not severe.  I never notice it in everyday life.  One leg is slightly shorter, I think less than 1/2”, but it causes me to run an EVA insole in one of my cycling shoes.  Only sport that needs it.

You’d be surprised how the body will develop its balance. 

Example, When you switch from normal shoes to minimalist shoes you notice the change immediately. After a small amount of time you don’t even realize they are a different shoe. 

 

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11 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

Does anyone here have any leg length discrepancy that uses AimPoint?  

Mine is not severe.  I never notice it in everyday life.  One leg is slightly shorter, I think less than 1/2”, but it causes me to run an EVA insole in one of my cycling shoes.  Only sport that needs it.

Just wondering if anyone knows if this will impact how well the system works.

John

For golfers like this we just always recommend you have the left leg on the uphill or downhill side of the slope. You'll either face the ball or the hole to keep the shorter leg on the side of the hill that you prefer to have it on.

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16 minutes ago, iacas said:

For golfers like this we just always recommend you have the left leg on the uphill or downhill side of the slope. You'll either face the ball or the hole to keep the shorter leg on the side of the hill that you prefer to have it on.

Thank you.

John

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