LIV Golf (Saudi PIF), "Mergers," and More

[phillyk]

I keep seeing a comment that banning or suspending these players wouldn’t be good for the game of golf. They didn’t join LIV for golf, they did it for money. They didn’t care about the game of golf or competition when they signed up, they saw a dollar sign and a few zeros. Don’t bring the game up now that people want to drop you. 

[iacas]

Longtime Golf Channel announcer Jerry Foltz leaves network, set to join LIV Golf according to sources | Golf News and Tour Information | GolfDigest.com

 

[iacas]

Ummmm, that's terrible.

[saevel25]

Got all that money for the golfers, and non left for a good teaser trailer? 😛 

[ChetlovesMer]

7 hours ago, Friz said:

Every single instance of vacated wins was because someone did something wrong at the time they won.  

I know this is off topic, but I'd argue that the 1988 Tulsa Women's Golf team did nothing wrong.

There are other examples too, but that's for another thread. 

[jbishop15]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Longtime Golf Channel announcer Jerry Foltz leaves network, set to join LIV Golf according to sources | Golf News and Tour Information | GolfDigest.com

 

'When contacted about leaving Golf Channel for LIV Golf, Foltz remained an ardent supporter of the women’s game, stating in a text message: “No comment. This week is about the biggest event in women’s history, not a commentator.”'

 

🙄

[Troy Ocker]

15 hours ago, klineka said:

What a horrible take.

So you honestly think every single player on that list should no longer get credit for things they did 5,10,15+ years ago? What about the prize money they won in those events? Should the runner up in every one of those tournaments be considered the winner?

They won those events fair and square, just because they made a questionable moral decision later in life doesn't mean they still aren't/weren't deserving champions of the events they won previously.

It might be too harsh, and the trophies these players have won, as you say, have been won fair and square. The reason I mentioned it is because I believe we need to take strong preventive measured in use to cope with sportswashing. The consequenses for joining LIV should be known for the players before they make that choice, not after. It's still baffling that players join and I don't believe any of these players are naive enough to not understand what they will be part of. It's obvious that pointing fingers isn't working or is a strong enough measure, when it's also obvious that many of these players already have broken moral compasses and don't care who their employers are or what people think. It must hurt the players to make decisions like this. If the players know they will be stripped of their medals and trophies if they cross this line, maybe they'll at least give it another thought before making such a horrible decision. They would in that case do it voluntarily knowing most of the consequenses of doing it. 

The 48 players that has now crossed this line will unfortunately lower the bar for other players to cross that same line in the future if it turns out it doesn't have any serious consequences for them. 

17 hours ago, Alx said:

Do you feel this strongy about the UAE working with the PGA?

I don't like it. I think the Saudi regime is a lot worse than the Emirates, even though the Emirates are bad too. 

[hunterdog]

Serious question. Not sure if this should be under LIV thread or Rules Forum. Hediki was disqualified from the Memorial because of paint on the face of a club. Known rule, he violated it, used the club, and penalty is disqualification. Fair enough.

If something similar happens on LIV Tour, only 48 players, no cut, with team component; what happens? Will the player still be disqualified? How will that impact team component? Will the player still get paid? 
 

I have tried to find answer but was unable to.  Does anyone know? Also, based on some comments by television golfers, Charlie Hoffman and Sergio, I have the sense that players expect the rules to be “relaxed” for LIV events. Has LUV Tour announced what rules will govern their events?

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

If something similar happens on LIV Tour, only 48 players, no cut, with team component; what happens? Will the player still be disqualified? How will that impact team component? Will the player still get paid?

As far as anyone knows, they're still going to be following the Rules of Golf.

Charley isn't even playing in the LIV event (unless he's one of the last six names).

[Friz]

9 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I know this is off topic, but I'd argue that the 1988 Tulsa Women's Golf team did nothing wrong.

There are other examples too, but that's for another thread. 

I won't argue hard against the fact they certainly got a raw deal, but it does still fall under the idea that SOMEONE did something wrong at the time of the vacated title.  That someone just happened to be elsewhere in the athletic department, and the entire school was punished for some pretty egregious violations by the track and field team under the banner of "lack of institutional control."

It sucks for the golf team because they actually weren't responsible for the violation, but it does still follow the idea that someone did something wrong at the time which is the crucial point in the idea of vacating wins or trophies.  Not that I think its the point you were trying to make, but just to come full circle and bring it back to any idea of stripping trophies from the LIV guys - there was nothing wrong at the time of the win.  Stripping titles for a decision in 2022 would be the same as, going back to that Tulsa athletic department violation, stripping that Golf Team's 1982 National Championship for a violation that happened in 1988, which of course didn't happen, their 1982 title still stands.

[klineka]

4 hours ago, Troy Ocker said:

It might be too harsh, and the trophies these players have won, as you say, have been won fair and square. 

Then any future actions they take shouldn't result in those trophies being stripped. Simple as that.

If DJ went out today and murdered someone or sexually assaulted his wife or something, both of which would be far worse of a moral decision than him joining the Saudis, should he be stripped of his titles because of those actions too? 

Tiger has made poor moral decisions, should his trophies be stripped too?

Just because someone makes a bad moral decision today doesn't mean their previous accomplishments are now invalid.

 

4 hours ago, Troy Ocker said:

The consequences for joining LIV should be known for the players before they make that choice, not after.

They know the consequences, that being that they won't be allowed to play on the PGA Tour anymore. The PGA tour has been pretty clear about that. The players don't fully know about the majors, but clearly for the ones who chose to go this route, they don't care. So it's not accurate to say that they don't know the consequences for joining LIV.

 

4 hours ago, Troy Ocker said:

It must hurt the players to make decisions like this. If the players know they will be stripped of their medals and trophies if they cross this line

Medals as in Olympic medals? Even though Saudi Arabia has competed in multiple Olympic games including as recently as the 2022 Winter Games? How does that make sense that professional golfers who choose to play in a Saudi backed golf league should be stripped of any Olympic medals they have won but that very same country actively competes in Olympic events??

 

4 hours ago, Troy Ocker said:

They would in that case do it voluntarily knowing most of the consequences of doing it. 

The 48 players that has now crossed this line will unfortunately lower the bar for other players to cross that same line in the future if it turns out it doesn't have any serious consequences for them. 

There is a serious consequence! They won't be able to play on the PGA Tour anymore. That's a pretty serious consequence, but like it or not, money is overruling that.

It's just not accurate to state that the players don't have any serious consequences or that they don't know what the consequences of their actions are prior to doing this.

 

You didn't answer my questions as to under your proposed model what happens to things like the money that the players won in those tournaments, the people who were runner ups, etc. What if there was a multiple way tie for 2nd in some of those events? Do all those players at T2 get credit for the win then?

You're obviously allowed to believe whatever you want to believe, but I personally think stripping players of medals, trophies, wins, etc is ridiculous and is going too far and isn't something that would likely ever happen for players who decide to join alternate leagues.

 

[jmanbooyaa]

I agree. Stripping a player who actually won is not a good plan. This is a tough call to vilify a player for taking money to secure their future for family. 6 million just to show up for a kid out of college. Who wouldn’t take that? I get where the money comes from is bad. I just can’t condemn someone for cashing out for good of their financial being or family. On the other side this is still new and we do not fully know what their participation entails. That could change my view. Taking money to play and what Norman is saying in interviews are different in my book. He has said we all make mistakes talking about a murder. That is insane. Lastly how the pga handles this will dictate if other players go to LIV. We can use Fowler as an example. He is weighing the options. Which to me means how strict will the consequences be. 

[Troy Ocker]

1 hour ago, klineka said:

Then any future actions they take shouldn't result in those trophies being stripped. Simple as that.

If DJ went out today and murdered someone or sexually assaulted his wife or something, both of which would be far worse of a moral decision than him joining the Saudis, should he be stripped of his titles because of those actions too? 

Tiger has made poor moral decisions, should his trophies be stripped too?

Just because someone makes a bad moral decision today doesn't mean their previous accomplishments are now invalid.

 

They know the consequences, that being that they won't be allowed to play on the PGA Tour anymore. The PGA tour has been pretty clear about that. The players don't fully know about the majors, but clearly for the ones who chose to go this route, they don't care. So it's not accurate to say that they don't know the consequences for joining LIV.

 

Medals as in Olympic medals? Even though Saudi Arabia has competed in multiple Olympic games including as recently as the 2022 Winter Games? How does that make sense that professional golfers who choose to play in a Saudi backed golf league should be stripped of any Olympic medals they have won but that very same country actively competes in Olympic events??

 

There is a serious consequence! They won't be able to play on the PGA Tour anymore. That's a pretty serious consequence, but like it or not, money is overruling that.

It's just not accurate to state that the players don't have any serious consequences or that they don't know what the consequences of their actions are prior to doing this.

 

You didn't answer my questions as to under your proposed model what happens to things like the money that the players won in those tournaments, the people who were runner ups, etc. What if there was a multiple way tie for 2nd in some of those events? Do all those players at T2 get credit for the win then?

You're obviously allowed to believe whatever you want to believe, but I personally think stripping players of medals, trophies, wins, etc is ridiculous and is going too far and isn't something that would likely ever happen for players who decide to join alternate leagues.

 

What preventive measures do think is suitable to prevent privileged players, from modern democracies with individual freedom for all that respects human rights, to help dictators hold on to their power in countries that doesn't respect freedom and human rights for its citizens? 

I really don't care about the practical part of stripping a player of his trophies (not titles), and I don't think it would be possible to take away money earned in previous tour events. Olympic medals would be tough to take away from a player. 

Regarding your example with murder and sexual assault, I'm pretty sure the legal justice system would serve him a fair trial and a suitable punishment for the crimes commited, which is not at all related to golf.

Receiving enormous amounts of money to play golf to sportswash the public image of one of the worst dictatorships in the world is golfrelated though (and not illegal). Not being able to freely choose which golftournaments to play anymore is hardly a serious consequence. These players will have to live with losing their honor and hopefully losing their fans and other sponsors. They should all have a serious look at themselves in the mirror and ask themselves if they really want to be a key part of one of the most serious problems in sports today. They are all pissing on the people suppressed, killed, imprisoned and/or robbed of their freedom by the Saudi regime. Maybe they should witness the next public beheading (by sword) and crucifixion of a person found guilty of blasphemi, speaking up against the regime, homosexuality, witchcraft, sorcery, apostasy or maybe good old adultery.   

[Missouri Swede]

2 hours ago, klineka said:

Then any future actions they take shouldn't result in those trophies being stripped. Simple as that.

If DJ went out today and murdered someone or sexually assaulted his wife or something, both of which would be far worse of a moral decision than him joining the Saudis, should he be stripped of his titles because of those actions too? 

Angel Cabrera is still in prison (for assault, among other things) as far as I know, but looks like his Masters, US Open and Greenbrier wins are still listed as wins. Jim Thorpe went to prison for tax crimes, but still has his wins listed.

So at least for US majors and for PGA Tour wins, looks like felony convictions aren't enough for retroactive loss of the win.

[iacas]

Sportswashing is not illegal. DJ is not committing a crime. You can’t take  away trophies. You’re nuts on this @Troy Ocker.

[jmanbooyaa]

The Ryder Cup will be greatly affected. Which sucks. 

[Vinsk]

28 minutes ago, jmanbooyaa said:

The Ryder Cup will be greatly affected. Which sucks. 

I don’t think so. Team USA is crazy deep. We even have more young talent since the last win.

[Friz]

26 minutes ago, jmanbooyaa said:

The Ryder Cup will be greatly affected. Which sucks. 

Based on the current field, not yet it won't.  I'm sure there are a handful of relevant guys that are waiting to see how the current field is disciplined before they make a decision on teeing it up in a future LIV event...but if there is reasonable deterrent for guys who still want to be associated with the PGA Tour to not play, Ryder Cup looks just fine to me.

DJ is the only loss on the American side.  Talor Gooch could have played his way onto a team, and honestly remains the biggest surprise to me of the entire LIV field, but plenty of American talent to field a team without missing anyone.

On the Euro side, Ian Poulter is maybe the biggest loss?  Solely from his past Ryder Cup performances and possible future captain, but he's 46 now and unclear whether he would've been a factor in future Ryder Cups anyway.  Still have Rahm, Rory, Hovland, Fitzpatrick, Hatton, Casey, Lowry, Fleetwood just off the top of my head as European guys.