LIV Golf (Saudi PIF), "Mergers," and More

[Friz]

8 hours ago, JetFan1983 said:

Stenson, CH3, Jason Kokrak and now Shooter. His taking the blood money doesn't surprise me in the least. He's never been the same since he blew the Tour Championship in '96 and always held a grudge against then-commissioner Doug Thompson for the direction he ultimately took the tour. The hits just keep on coming, ugh.

Another guy going back on his word.  Seems like he was just saying

Quote

Let’s get one thing straight, this is Shooter’s tour. I’ve worked hard my whole life, paid my dues, and now it’s Shooter’s turn. And Shooter’s not about to let his reign at the top be spoiled by some freak, sideshow, clown [tour].

 

[Shindig]

Wow, Shooter went to work for what he used to eat for breakfast. 

[RFKFREAK]

3 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I hope I can continue to say this, but it still remains that insignificant players are joining the LIV series with the exception of 1.5 players. It’s like a pre-Champions Tour.

Oldest PR trick in the book - adding names every few days so as to have the perception that everyone is going over.  As you've noted, few of consequence.

Edited July 21, 2022 by RFKFREAK

[turtleback]

15 hours ago, Shindig said:

I am very upset to see CH3 go.  

“ The saddest thing in life is wasted talent.”  - A Bronx Tale

[imsys0042]

15 hours ago, Shindig said:

I am very upset to see CH3 go.  

Although by everything I read CH3 was a very nice guy, let's face it...he was the guy in your office who nobody could ever figure out what the heck he did and he just kind of milled around half the day.   In Simpson's parlance, he was a chair moistener.

That might sound harsh, but what really gets me about a lot of these defectors is that you have to know at this point that this is disruptive and they still go.   The office/company analogy is not perfect but I think it covers enough.   It's one thing to quit and go to a competitor and try your best at your new job; it's another thing to go somewhere unethical and/or trash your former company that used to pay your bills and there are people there that you still should care about.

Not everyone jumping to the LIV is throwing the tour under the bus, but some of the garbage that comes from the others is just plain ungrateful for being given the chance to coast for years and make millions.

[Big C]

I was prepared to post something to the effect of "Charles Howell's LIV signing bonus probably matched his career earnings on the PGA tour." Thankfully, I decided to look up CH's career earnings before posting because I was shocked. Did you know that Howell has earned over $42 million during his PGA tour career? Good for 23rd on the career money list? I suppose that's off topic, but it did surprise me. 

Ok - back on to the topic at hand. By itself, this move does little to hurt the PGA Tour. Neither Kokrak nor Howell moved the needle in any meaningful way and if anything, their "retirement" from the tour should afford more opportunities to some up and coming names. 

With that said, each successive pro who says "yes" to LIV is making it easier for the next guy to do the same. And since most of these guys are probably friends with a bunch of their peers, it's going to be really hard for the middle range tour pro to not look at Howell, Pat Perez, Kokrak and others scoop up millions without having a tinge of envy. 

It now seems very likely that other pros are going to follow suit very soon. If/when Cam Smith goes to LIV, the tour is going to be in serious trouble. And that is a damn shame.

[70sSanO]

2 hours ago, RFKFREAK said:

Oldest PR trick in the book - adding names every few days so as to have the perception that everyone is going over.  As you've noted, few of consequence.

With the finances behind LIV, I really don't think it will go away.

I agree that there is a perception of excitement and something new with LIV.  In the long run this tactic may even be a blessing in disguise for the PGA and DP Tours as people may just not care about the golfers on the LIV Tour.  The consequence is that LIV ends up not being relevant to anyone under 30.

The only real threat to the PGA Tour is if LIV sets up sets up a development tour.  If you are a young aspiring player who is struggling financially while trying to get that break and someone is willing to pay you a $250k salary and pay your expenses until you can make your move onto the big LIV tour, it would probably tough to say no.  Especially if you are not from a family of means and no one else is helping you out.

A lot of pros have stories of how they struggled starting out to make ends meet and get from one event to the next.  I'm sure those experiences have molded their game and the ability to play better under pressure, like Trevino's stories of hustling with empty pockets.  But with no guarantees and so many who never make it, it might be wise for the PGA Tour to take steps to keep young players in the fold; even if it means some degree of subsidizing.

John

[DeadMan]

Getting guys like Perez, Gooch, Swafford, and CH3 confuses me a little bit. I really wonder what LIV told those guys and what's in their contracts. If they get the top players they're really after, those guys are going to be out the door. We've already seen what's happened with people like Ogletree. We're not going to see him on LIV again. What's stopping LIV from booting anybody else?

[Friz]

6 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Getting guys like Perez, Gooch, Swafford, and CH3 confuses me a little bit. I really wonder what LIV told those guys and what's in their contracts. If they get the top players they're really after, those guys are going to be out the door. We've already seen what's happened with people like Ogletree. We're not going to see him on LIV again. What's stopping LIV from booting anybody else?

This is what I keep wondering.  I have a very hard time believing these guys are leaving without a multi-year deal and guarantees they'll be able to play in every event.  And LIV only has room to do that 48 times.  Just looking at the field for their next event, I'd estimate there could be 30-35 guys, at least, that could have some version of that

So what happens when LIV gets to 48 guaranteed contracts?  Do they stop poaching or do they start terminating contracts early?

[boogielicious]

40 minutes ago, imsys0042 said:

Although by everything I read CH3 was a very nice guy, let's face it...he was the guy in your office who nobody could ever figure out what the heck he did and he just kind of milled around half the day.   In Simpson's parlance, he was a chair moistener.

That might sound harsh, but what really gets me about a lot of these defectors is that you have to know at this point that this is disruptive and they still go.   The office/company analogy is not perfect but I think it covers enough.   It's one thing to quit and go to a competitor and try your best at your new job; it's another thing to go somewhere unethical and/or trash your former company that used to pay your bills and there are people there that you still should care about.

Not everyone jumping to the LIV is throwing the tour under the bus, but some of the garbage that comes from the others is just plain ungrateful for being given the chance to coast for years and make millions.

If he changed his first name to Thurston, he would have been noticed more.

[Darkfrog]

1 minute ago, Friz said:

Do they stop poaching or do they start terminating contracts early?

My guess is that it would be similar to other pro sports - if  LIV Golf player becomes expendable, they keep the guaranteed money and lose the rest.

[Vinsk]

I can understand the desire for more money as anyone can. What I don’t really agree with are the already wealthy individuals who are jumping ship to an unscrupulous entity. Is it justified when someone who truly needs the money goes? Well, maybe not. But it just shows poor ethics in my mind when someone who has profited very generously from the PGA TOUR abandons it purely for more money. Not to secure their future. That’s already set. So these are the guys that I really don’t have much respect for. 

[DeadMan]

4 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

My guess is that it would be similar to other pro sports - if  LIV Golf player becomes expendable, they keep the guaranteed money and lose the rest.

That may be the rub, too. Some of these contracts are reportedly set up as advances. I'd bet that others have certain player guarantees to get the full amount. I don't think it's as simple as Pat Perez just keeping all of the money he got if he gets booted.

[Vinsk]

16 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

That may be the rub, too. Some of these contracts are reportedly set up as advances. I'd bet that others have certain player guarantees to get the full amount. I don't think it's as simple as Pat Perez just keeping all of the money he got if he gets booted.

Yeah I wonder if it’s really ‘up front.’ I’ve been offered sign on bonuses that were to be paid over a period of time. I wonder if some of these guys were given a bonus that is paid our monthly or added to their winnings in some incremental way.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, imsys0042 said:

Although by everything I read CH3 was a very nice guy, let's face it...he was the guy in your office who nobody could ever figure out what the heck he did and he just kind of milled around half the day.   In Simpson's parlance, he was a chair moistener.

It is harsh, because… CHIII was one of the most widely respected PGA Tour players. He'd earned a solid living for a LONG time, yet he could still go to most places and be unrecognized. Tour players have a deep respect for CHIII.

2 hours ago, Big C said:

I was prepared to post something to the effect of "Charles Howell's LIV signing bonus probably matched his career earnings on the PGA tour." Thankfully, I decided to look up CH's career earnings before posting because I was shocked. Did you know that Howell has earned over $42 million during his PGA tour career? Good for 23rd on the career money list? I suppose that's off topic, but it did surprise me.

That's what I'm saying up above.

1 hour ago, DeadMan said:

That may be the rub, too. Some of these contracts are reportedly set up as advances. I'd bet that others have certain player guarantees to get the full amount. I don't think it's as simple as Pat Perez just keeping all of the money he got if he gets booted.

Pat Perez said that was BS. Whether he was spouting his own BS is another possibility, but… he said the bonuses were pre-paid and not advances, in the contract, etc.

I think maybe Brandel got that one wrong (I'd heard the same thing before BC started talking about it more).

[Aguirre]

They better be prepaid and in an offshore account. I do wonder what jurisdiction they are in. Places like the Caymans and Switzerland of course come to mind. But LIV is going to protect their investment, too. If a player skips a few events or has too many medical issues? That would be interesting. Particularly if the money is up front. 

[Vinsk]

10 minutes ago, Aguirre said:

They better be prepaid and in an offshore account. I do wonder what jurisdiction they are in. Places like the Caymans and Switzerland of course come to mind. But LIV is going to protect their investment, too. If a player skips a few events or has too many medical issues? That would be interesting. Particularly if the money is up front. 

It wouldn’t be difficult to just have a clause in the contract stating that the ‘sign on’ bonus will be paid back on a ‘time served’ pro rate if the player leaves prior to their ‘3 year’ commitment right?

[70sSanO]

They’ll just start a LIV Legends Tour with a 36 hole format played on Tuesday and Wednesday where the prize money will be keeping their bonus.

John