Is This Ball Marker Going Too Far?

[fredf]

4 hours ago, Bonvivant said:

Isn't the face of the putter a straight line longer than 2 inches?

That has no relevance. #35 advises something you can do and this example fits that situation. #31 advises something you cannot do and this example does not fit that situation.

[DaveP043]

7 hours ago, Bonvivant said:

Isn't the face of the putter a straight line longer than 2 inches?

You should really look at:

Rule 14, which tells you of a couple of ways you can mark your ball, including placing a club next to the ball.

Definition of Ball Marker, which talks about a number of different things with which you can mark the ball (including "an object made to be a ball marker")

The section in the Equipment Rules that @Missouri Swede quoted, which talks about when an object manufactured to be a ball marker becomes an alignment device. 

The 2-inch limit applies only to objects intended to be a ball marker. The definition of "ball marker" allows you to use a "small piece of equipment".  A tee may not be longer than 4 inches, so that's about the maximum size that would classify as a "small piece of equipment" in my interpretation.

 

[pganapathy]

I voted yes.  For me, the ball marker isn't going to help a player who doesn't have the correct line in the first place.  And aligning it with this or just a line is the same.  Most importantly, as long as Pace Of Play isn't affected, I don't care either way.  If it winds up taking a player too much time, then by all means ban it.  I occasionally draw lines on my ball, but never bother about using that or the arrows on the ball to line it up.  I just look for my line, pick a spot a few inches from my ball and align myself with that

[Smash]

Just to throw out an alternative viewpoint.........

I'm a habitual putter-ball-line guy. I think the line on the ball helps me aim and align my putts better. It can't be that foreign of a concept since a lot of guys on the PGA Tour use it, too. 

I bought one of these Trident devices and I really love it. 

I'm able to get a more accurate alignment. Because of the moveable base and the side markings on the ball (these are key), I can make little micro-adjustments very precisely and get my ball aligned exactly how I want it to sit. And - here's the best part for you non-line guys - I can get my aligning done in half the time. The moveable base allows me to make small adjustments much quicker than without it. I think this device - at least for me - improves pace of play.

If you're a line-on-the-ball-guy, I would give this device a run. 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Smash said:

I think this device - at least for me - improves pace of play.

Has it lowered your scores?  

[Smash]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

Has it lowered your scores?  

I've been about a putt per round better. Now, let me throw in a caveat because I don't know that the improvement is entirely due to the moving-ball-marker-gizmo and might be more due to their plastic-line-template-gizmo.

In practice, the line markings with their line template helped me identify a way to roll the ball more on a 12-6 plane. I had a little bit of wobble in my roll that i wasn't seeing with just a simple, single line. I had some mechanical flaw in my stroke and my line wasn't rolling 100% 12-6. I didn't visually pick that up until I started using their line template which has these little side markers/wings which showed this slight wobble in the roll. I feel like this mechanical change has me rolling the ball straighter and that is probably the biggest part of the improvement. I feel like I'm simply rolling the ball straighter. 

 

[iacas]

I missed it, but…

https://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rulesarticles/clarifications-of-the-2019-rules-of-golf.html

Quote

2. When Use of Alignment Device Results in Breach

If a player places an “alignment device” (see Definition in Equipment Rules to see when a ball-marker meets this Definition) to show the line of play and then orients his or her ball based on the direction of that alignment device, the player is in breach of Rule 4.3a.

For example, a player’s ball comes to rest on the putting green and the player marks the spot of his or her ball with an “alignment device.” When doing so, the alignment device is placed to show the line of play. If the player then lifts and replaces his or her ball (which includes rotating it) so that a marking on the ball is lined up with the alignment device, the player is in breach of Rule 4.3a. (Added 1/2020)

www.fsga.org

When the Rules of Golf were overhauled and released in January of 2019, the new Rules included a definition of a ball-marker and how it can be used. Then in January of 2020, the USGA released a Clarification that references the Equipment Rules that further defines the specifications of allowable ball-markers.

…

The Clarification released in January of 2020 addresses ball-markers that were designed to help with alignment. Most normal sized ball-markers with alignment lines are allowed; however, the Equipment Rules explain what is not allowed.

Ball-makers with alignment aids (lines, arrows, etc.) must be:

• Less than one inch in height
• Less than two inches in any horizontal direction
• Must not measure or gauge slope, green speed, or other conditions

Any ball-marker that exceeds the above dimensions, and has alignment lines, is considered an “alignment device” and is not permitted. The first time an alignment device is used to mark and align the ball the player earns the General Penalty (loss of hole in match play and two strokes in stroke play). The second use results in Disqualification.

The two ball-markers in the images to the right are permitted because they are less than one inch in height and less than two inches in any horizontal direction.

• Ball-marker definition
• Equipment Rules (see page 71 - #7)
• Clarification (see 4.3a)

Because the Trident is so small, it is still legal, though.

Which seems somewhat in conflict with what the USGA stuff says above.

I have TST ball markers, and… they have lines on them. I don't line my ball up to those lines, and I don't know how I'd determine if someone else was just because they were lining their ball up to their line, either.

Does anyone have any clarifying info here? The USGA says if you use the alignment lines as @DaveP043 said, the FSGA said it's dependent on the size of the marker?

[DaveP043]

16 hours ago, iacas said:

Does anyone have any clarifying info here? The USGA says if you use the alignment lines as @DaveP043 said, the FSGA said it's dependent on the size of the marker?

To me there are two criteria that have to be satisfied to have a violation:  the marker must fit the definition of alignment device, and it must be used that way.  You're allowed to mark your ball, and you can use almost anything that's artificial, even your shoe.  While the Rules recommend the use of a "small piece of equipment", there's no size limit placed on the marker.  Lots of the commercial ball markers will have some type of linear feature, whether its lines like the TST ball markers have, or a line of text.  On the other hand, you're not allowed to use equipment "that artificially eliminates or reduces the need for a skill or judgment that is essential to the challenge of the game".  Rule 10.2 says "The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made."  

So the Ruling Bodies have to kind of split the difference between the permission to mark and lift the ball with the prohibitions against indicating a line of play.  They could simply say you can't use ANY straight line on a ball marker to indicate the line, but I think that could cause lots of accusations for relatively innocent actions.  So they've compromised to some extent, they made a rule that allows most currently-available ball markers, up to poker-chip size, to be used at any time, in any orientation.  But if you use something larger, with a straight line on it, and align it to your intended line of play, you're in violation.

[iacas]

33 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

To me there are two criteria that have to be satisfied to have a violation:  the marker must fit the definition of alignment device, and it must be used that way.  You're allowed to mark your ball, and you can use almost anything that's artificial, even your shoe.  While the Rules recommend the use of a "small piece of equipment", there's no size limit placed on the marker.  Lots of the commercial ball markers will have some type of linear feature, whether its lines like the TST ball markers have, or a line of text.  On the other hand, you're not allowed to use equipment "that artificially eliminates or reduces the need for a skill or judgment that is essential to the challenge of the game".  Rule 10.2 says "The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made."  

So the Ruling Bodies have to kind of split the difference between the permission to mark and lift the ball with the prohibitions against indicating a line of play.  They could simply say you can't use ANY straight line on a ball marker to indicate the line, but I think that could cause lots of accusations for relatively innocent actions.  So they've compromised to some extent, they made a rule that allows most currently-available ball markers, up to poker-chip size, to be used at any time, in any orientation.  But if you use something larger, with a straight line on it, and align it to your intended line of play, you're in violation.

So your understanding is that it must fail two tests:

• over a certain size
• with an alignment line that you use

So if you have a plain dinner plate and you mark your ball with it, you're fine. If you use a dinner plate with lines on it, so long as you kinda set the dinner plate down haphazardly, you're still fine. But if you line the lines up on the dinner plate, you're in violation.

Is that correct?

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

So your understanding is that it must fail two tests:

• over a certain size
• with an alignment line that you use

So if you have a plain dinner plate and you mark your ball with it, you're fine. If you use a dinner plate with lines on it, so long as you kinda set the dinner plate down haphazardly, you're still fine. But if you line the lines up on the dinner plate, you're in violation.

Is that correct?

That's the way I read the Rule, yes.  Maybe 3 steps, I mentioned two steps earlier.

Quote

If a player places an “alignment device” (see Definition in Equipment Rules to see when a ball-marker meets this Definition) to show the line of play and then orients his or her ball based on the direction of that alignment device, the player is in breach of Rule 4.3a.

1  Use something that fits the definition of Alignment Device, which is based on size and markings. 

2  Place it to show the Line of Play,

3.  and then orient the Ball.  

[Rulesman]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

So your understanding is that it must fail two tests:

• over a certain size
• with an alignment line that you use

So if you have a plain dinner plate and you mark your ball with it, you're fine. If you use a dinner plate with lines on it, so long as you kinda set the dinner plate down haphazardly, you're still fine. But if you line the lines up on the dinner plate, you're in violation.

Is that correct?

I think a dinner plate would be too extreme. The curvature would be too shallow to allow a ball to be located accurately. But o/w ok.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Rulesman said:

I think a dinner plate would be too extreme. The curvature would be too shallow to allow a ball to be located accurately. But o/w ok.

It's the point nearest the hole. And maybe it has a design on it.

[Rulesman]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

It's the point nearest the hole. And maybe it has a design on it.

A marker may be used 500 yards or more from a blind hole 😉

[Bucki1968]

What about this one?

Amazon.com

 

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Rulesman said:

A marker may be used 500 yards or more from a blind hole 😉

One could still orient the plate toward a tree or a peculiar piece of grass. 🙂

[ChetlovesMer]

3 hours ago, Bucki1968 said:

What about this one?

Amazon.com

 

That can't be legal can it?

 

[boogielicious]

1 minute ago, ChetlovesMer said:

That can't be legal can it?

 

Maybe in LIV golf.😜

[woodzie264]

3 hours ago, Bucki1968 said:

What about this one?

Amazon.com

 

nah - it measures slope/break which is explicitly illegal in the rule