Race and Inclusion in America and Beyond

[mdl]

16 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I refuse to engage in "white guilt". I've never owned slaves, nor have any of my ancestors. They all arrived here in not the best financial circumstances and worked their way up. They had ambition. and you know what? So did many black folk. They wanted to build a better future for their children until the government crushed it with the "War on Poverty"!

This is willful ignorance. My ancestors were Poles who came to work the coal mines and Jews running from pogroms. They never owned slaves. They came with nothing. That is entirely beside the point

When you were 12, did your dad take you to a parking lot and practice how not to get killed sitting in each seat while he walked up like a cop? When you were 8 did your uncle sit you down and tell you never to leave a store without a receipt or you might get killed by police? Is your parents' house worth half what it would be if their neighborhood didn't have lots of people who look like you? Have you had your resume tossed aside over and over in favor of less qualified people because of your name (too black)? Do you have friends in jail because they smoked pot in high school? Have you been offered less money than less qualified colleagues at every job because of how you look? Have you been passed over for promotions for less qualified colleagues because of how you look? Has that and (much) worse been happening to your family for generations?

Yeah I didn't think so.

 

[iacas]

7 hours ago, JGus said:

You are making very generalized statements that all white people had advantages and all black people were disadvantaged, which I think are false statements,

Y'all mostly handled it, but @JGus: generalized statements don't mean "all." They mean what they say "generally."

"Great putters have good distance control. That doesn't mean ALL great putters have good distance control on EVERY putt they ever hit."

The only way we can talk about this stuff is to generalize a bit, while still being mindful that not everyone fits into that box. Not all policemen are racially biased or prone to reacting with excessive force, but enough are that it's a problem. Not all black people are afraid to even be pulled over for a traffic violation, but enough are that it's a problem. Etc.

[billchao]

I live and work in Camden, the New Jersey city that disbanded and rebuilt its police force. We've been upheld as a model for cities like Minneapolis, but there's a lot more to the story.

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Camden has ranked as the 10th-most-dangerous city in America and is still the most dangerous city in New Jersey.

@Double Mocha Man

[Carl3]

disarm the police? check this out:

The naivety expressed on this thread has gasted my flabber. Google British police videos and you will get a bunch, just like Russian dash cam videos. Enjoy.

22 hours ago, QuadrupleBogey said:

Better yet, disarm the cops. They do it in Europe. works fine. They maybe use their gun 3 times in a career, so why carry it all day? Do you see firefighters walking around with hoses and axes looking for fires? Nope.

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Carl3

[Double Mocha Man]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

I live and work in Camden, the New Jersey city that disbanded and rebuilt its police force. We've been upheld as a model for cities like Minneapolis, but there's a lot more to the story.

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Camden has ranked as the 10th-most-dangerous city in America and is still the most dangerous city in New Jersey.

@Double Mocha Man

Bill, what would be your solution to disbanding, defunding or cutting down on police departments?  Is it even needed?

I read the article and my eyes are open.  Bigger question:  Why are you still in Camden?

Edited June 10, 2020 by Double Mocha Man

[billchao]

6 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Bill, what would be your solution to disbanding, defunding or cutting down on police departments?  Is it even needed?

I can't answer that question. I have no experience in the field, nor am I educated or well enough informed on the subject to make realistic proposals. Anything I could come up with would probably not make sense on multiple levels.

I do have opinions on the subject. I don't believe police forces should be militarized. I believe the police response to the protests in some cases has been excessive. I also believe the police response to different protests seems to be inconsistent, based on the subject of the protests (I can't recall reading about or seeing any videos of people assaulted by police or shot at with tear gas/pepper bullets during the COVID-19 lockdown protests), which is wrong. I also believe police organizations are susceptible to corruption, like any other authority would be.

Do we need police? Absolutely. Just not the way we have it today.

25 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

I read the article and my eyes are open.  Bigger question:  Why are you still in Camden?

I'm not in Camden. It's a little over an hour away from me. The only time I ever go to Camden is for the aquarium.

[Double Mocha Man]

15 minutes ago, billchao said:

I can't answer that question. I have no experience in the field, nor am I educated or well enough informed on the subject to make realistic proposals. Anything I could come up with would probably not make sense on multiple levels.

I do have opinions on the subject. I don't believe police forces should be militarized. I believe the police response to the protests in some cases has been excessive. I also believe the police response to different protests seems to be inconsistent, based on the subject of the protests (I can't recall reading about or seeing any videos of people assaulted by police or shot at with tear gas/pepper bullets during the COVID-19 lockdown protests), which is wrong. I also believe police organizations are susceptible to corruption, like any other authority would be.

Do we need police? Absolutely. Just not the way we have it today.

I'm not in Camden. It's a little over an hour away from me. The only time I ever go to Camden is for the aquarium.

We don't need heavy-handed police forces.  We need well-educated police officers with compassion and a full understanding of the social fabric of our cities.  There needs to be fewer officers in cruisers and more just walking the streets... interacting. I'll fund that.

Here's a 911 police story I experienced and I'm glad the police were quick to react.  My 911 story: Several years ago I awoke about 3AM to hear several whispering voices under my upstairs bedroom window. So I opened and then closed the window and the 4 guys took off running. Stupidly they returned about 10 minutes later. I called 911 and the dispatcher grilled me about why I thought something was up. I told him I was their age once and if you are whispering late at night on someone's property you are up to no good. I don't think they were being considerate and keeping their voices down to allow people to sleep. So the dispatcher finally sent the police. The cruiser came up the hill with no emergency lights and no siren, not even headlights. When the guys saw that they ran in four different directions. The police caught two of them. About 20 minutes later the 911 dispatcher called me to apologize. The two guys they caught had felony records for burglary and theft.

There are times we will need the protective element of a police force.  But we need some adjustment... that is obvious.  It should never be Police vs. Citizens.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Double Mocha Man

[JGus]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

Y'all mostly handled it, but @JGus: generalized statements don't mean "all." They mean what they say "generally."

"Great putters have good distance control. That doesn't mean ALL great putters have good distance control on EVERY putt they ever hit."

The only way we can talk about this stuff is to generalize a bit, while still being mindful that not everyone fits into that box. Not all policemen are racially biased or prone to reacting with excessive force, but enough are that it's a problem. Not all black people are afraid to even be pulled over for a traffic violation, but enough are that it's a problem. Etc.

I agree with this, and maybe the bold text is what I felt was missing with the posts I responded to.

[finsfan21]

Why is it that Asians and Indian Immigrants can be successful in this country?  Why are immigrants from Africa successful? Do they not face the same racism and institutional blocks to advancement?

[gjunkie57]

6 hours ago, finsfan21 said:

Why is it that Asians and Indian Immigrants can be successful in this country?  Why are immigrants from Africa successful? Do they not face the same racism and institutional blocks to advancement?

 

 

 

Good observation. In general the African is here because they have a specialized skill. All the Africans I worked with had the PhD ( I am a retired engineer).

[Bonvivant]

7 hours ago, finsfan21 said:

Why is it that Asians and Indian Immigrants can be successful in this country?  Why are immigrants from Africa successful? Do they not face the same racism and institutional blocks to advancement?

Because generally it is a wealthy/skilled family that immigrates here from those countries. If they grew up in a project, or went to crappy intercity public schools, their outcome would be quite different. These groups still experience racism, but it is less harsh than what the legal and social systems do to African Americans.

[mcanadiens]

9 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

crappy intercity public schools,

I know its very anecdotal, but had a firsthand example of this when I went to college myself back in the 90s

I befriended some guys from East Cleveland while at Bowling Green that were products of those local schools. I never met more intelligent or harder-working people that those guys in my time there. They showed up to every class and put in the time every evening. They passed their classes but it was a struggle. These same classes were ones that I got B's with only the most modest efforts and they were just trying gut out Cs with tremendous effort.

Looked up East Cleveland's state rank just now. It's 607 out of 608 public school districts. The only school worse is ... Dayton (stunner!). My suburban alma mater Beavercreek is #83. Must be back sliding since the old days.

 

[Deepred]

A few points, 

What the graph does not take into account is the economic differences, in DC for instance the white population is extremely well paid and more likely to be involved in using drugs than selling them. 

Last year 9 unarmed African American males were killed by police, too many but less than half as many whites. Unusual numbers but a positive direction from other years where the numbers are often equal.

in 2019 over 7,000 African American males were murdered, over 90% by other minority males, the past three weekends in Chicago alone the number is over 30. Are the police really the issue?

As an in home sales person I spend all day in neighborhoods between Richmond and Wilmington DE and I have been followed by police, watched by police and neighbors, even asked what I’m doing in this park or on this street between appointments, no one has pulled a gun or ordered me out of the car which quite possibly is because not even a blind man would mistake me for a minority. 

In my opinion the greatest threat to our society is those who divided us for their political gain, often with lies, remember “hands up don’t shoot” which was a complete fabrication for instance. And with government help, there is a direct correlation between the growth of the welfare state and the dissolution of the family. 

[ncates00]

24 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Because generally it is a wealthy/skilled family that immigrates here from those countries. If they grew up in a project, or went to crappy intercity public schools, their outcome would be quite different. These groups still experience racism, but it is less harsh than what the legal and social systems do to African Americans.

This is an over-generalization.  I taught in an inner city school for 6 years before going to the legal field.  It is predominately black, but we had many Hispanic students, Indian students, and white students.  Often, the highest performing students were Indian students.  They often had the highest ACT/SAT scores and received many more class awards.  These students did not come from wealthy families.  They were zoned for the school because they lived in the same poor neighborhoods as their black counterparts.  I saw black students during their junior and senior years with ACT scores I had in middle school, while many of the Indian students would get around the 30 mark for the ACT and offers from schools like Vanderbilt or full rides from large public colleges. 

However, I also saw stellar work from Hispanics, blacks, and whites.  Typically, the highest performing students had parents that cared and pushed their kids to do well; and, I don't mean the parent that puts on a show just for parent-teacher conferences to look like they care.  I'm talking about the parents who stayed on their kids by putting school first.  This would often happen even in spite of poverty.  I saw many single mom households with the mom holding it down with multiple jobs, but she came to conferences and responded to my messages quickly.  You could see the "want to" and the encouragement in her eyes.  Parents play a huge role in a kid's life.  Kids with good parents often do really well, even if they don't come from the suburbs.

Many of my top performing students were also athletes of some kind.  They played football, soccer, basketball, baseball, cheerleading, etc.  "Having something to play for" kinda matters.  Having a coach that cares about grades and stays on the kids really helps too.  I know coaches would have students do extra running or something if they didn't hit certain academic benchmarks.  However, there were also some students who only cared about sports.  This was not ideal for academics.  They would just perform in class just enough to stay on the team, and it was obvious.

I also know that teachers play a huge role.  Some students jive with certain teachers.  For instance, there were some kids that I just couldn't reach, so I would reach out to the teachers where the kid had good grades and tried to see what they did.  The same happened for me too; there were some kids that for some reason really liked me and colleagues would come ask me what I do with that kid because he or she would say that my class was the only class they liked.

I say all this to say that while poverty plays a huge role, it's not the only answer.  I come from a poor background in a small rural community in which the whole county is comprised of only 16k people, with my particular area being especially small.  In fact, there is only, to my knowledge, one stop light in the whole county.  My grandparents didn't go to high school, and my parents only graduated high school.  My sister and I were first generation college students and first professional school students as well (law school for me and PA school for my sister).  Our parents pushed us.  They wanted more for us.  My parents would grill me for making a 93 or 94--they would ask, well why didn't you make a 95 or something?  The top students at the school in which I taught were very similar.  If better was available, then even really good was not enough.  It didn't matter whether it was an A or not--they wanted YOUR best.  I remember I had a parent question an Indian student about why they had a 99 and not a 100 in my class!

In short, there are many things that lead to a child not performing well in school.  Poverty is a huge one, no question, but there are other factors as well.  I could go on forever talking about education, but this will do for now.  I hope education makes a huge turnaround.  There are days I miss teaching, but I think I made the right choice.  Just be careful with broad generalizations.  Broad generalizations such as yours are largely false and require a more nuanced view.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Deepred said:

Are the police really the issue?

Nobody is saying police are the only issue.

[finsfan21]

1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

Because generally it is a wealthy/skilled family that immigrates here from those countries. If they grew up in a project, or went to crappy intercity public schools, their outcome would be quite different. These groups still experience racism, but it is less harsh than what the legal and social systems do to African Americans.

Any supporting facts to this. Or is this opinion?

[Deepred]

The drug trade and the schools are the biggest issues, the only cure is to demand far better from the elected government officials. Baltimore, Chicago, Newark etc. spend the most per pupil and have the worst schools, in Baltimore the spending is about $17,000 per student per year and there are at least a half dozen schools which do not have a single male student who is proficient in English or math. What kind of future do these men have? 

[ncates00]

3 minutes ago, Deepred said:

the only cure is to demand far better from the elected government officials. Baltimore, Chicago, Newark etc. spend the most per pupil and have the worst schools, in Baltimore the spending is about $17,000 per student per year and there are at least a half dozen schools which do not have a single male student who is proficient in English or math.

What would you demand from the elected government officials?  After all, these same elected officials are the ones budgeting for and allocating the funds you mentioned.  So, if the spending is not working, what far better alternatives would you demand of the officials?