Greatest Pitcher of All Time (FiveThirtyEight)

[saevel25]

The Best Pitchers Of All Time | FiveThirtyEight

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In the summer of 2000, the Cleveland Indians had a lineup to be reckoned with. By season’s end, they’d pounded out 950 runs, second-most in the American League …

I really enjoy articles like this. Just an objective look, with the help of statistics, at some really good pitchers. Like stats like this is just stupid. Pedro, come on!

Then you have the one were Greg Maddux faced 20,421 batters during his career and only issued 293 four-pitch walks. 153 were intentional. I always enjoyed watching Greg Maddux pitch. He was just super efficient and maybe the best precision pitcher of all time. 

[Big C]

43 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

The Best Pitchers Of All Time | FiveThirtyEight

---

In the summer of 2000, the Cleveland Indians had a lineup to be reckoned with. By season’s end, they’d pounded out 950 runs, second-most in the American League …

I really enjoy articles like this. Just an objective look, with the help of statistics, at some really good pitchers. Like stats like this is just stupid. Pedro, come on!

Then you have the one were Greg Maddux faced 20,421 batters during his career and only issued 293 four-pitch walks. 153 were intentional. I always enjoyed watching Greg Maddux pitch. He was just super efficient and maybe the best precision pitcher of all time. 

It is interesting to see how the modern statistical analysis can do what 10-15 years ago seemed impossible - compare athletes from different generations.

I do sometimes feel like the abundance of data takes away the "art" of some of these debates. My dad was a child of the 50's & 60's and he will go to his grave believing that Sandy Koufax is the greatest pitcher of all time. His arguments were largely anecdotal, but it was still a lot more fun to hear him recount Koufax stories from that era than it would have been if he were reciting his WAR, or adjusted ERA, etc. 

Objectively though, it is really hard to argue against Pedro. Any Red Sox fan from that era will tell you that his starts were must watch television, and the data largely backs it up. It still pains me that the Dodgers couldn't see his talent (Tommy Lasorda thought he was too small to be a starter) and traded him for Delino Deshields. With all their offensive talent in the 90's, they largely underperformed, and I really think they could have won a couple of titles if they had kept him.

[colin007]

Saw the thread title and immediately thought of Pedro. Thread does not disappoint.

[boogielicious]

My wife and I got to sit behind home plate a few rows up when Pedro was pitching. He was phenomenal.

[CarlSpackler]

[jsgolfer]

As a Sox fan, Pedro was the man, but for a stretch of about 5 years, Koufax was unreal.

[saevel25]

Just now, jsgolfer said:

As a Sox fan, Pedro was the man, but for a stretch of about 5 years, Koufax was unreal.

Say you round off the peak of Pedro from 1999-2003, he maintains the level of the other pitchers on that list from like 1995 till 2003. He had 8-10 years of elite pitching (top 5), but 3-4 years of just being the best pitcher in the world. 

I would say him and Randy Johnson are #1 and #2. I think Johnson somehow gets overshadowed by Maddux, Clemens, and Pedro. 

Also, he played on some OK Seattle teams. If Randy Johnson played for Boston or Atlanta during that timeframe I think his name would be considered more when you ask about great pitchers in the 90's and all time great. 

 

[billchao]

40 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

If Randy Johnson played for Boston or Atlanta during that timeframe I think his name would be considered more when you ask about great pitchers in the 90's and all time great. 

I don’t think anyone who knows baseball doesn’t have Randy Johnson as one of the best pitchers of all time.

[Double Mocha Man]

8 minutes ago, billchao said:

I don’t think anyone who knows baseball doesn’t have Randy Johnson as one of the best pitchers of all time.

There is a dead seagull that will attest to that...

[saevel25]

35 minutes ago, billchao said:

I don’t think anyone who knows baseball doesn’t have Randy Johnson as one of the best pitchers of all time.

I just think that since he played in Seattle, he didn't get much recognition till he played in Arizona. 

In the 90's he only played in 3 post season games for Seattle. 

I feel like he would have a bigger name if he played in a big city. LA, SF, Boston, Atlanta during the 90's. 

Imagine if he was a NYY during the 90's. 

Edited February 14, 2021 by saevel25

[billchao]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

I just think that since he played in Seattle, he didn't get much recognition till he played in Arizona.

I think it was more that he had a resurgence in Arizona. He was like 35 when he played for Arizona the first time. He won a Cy Young award in Seattle, and it could have been more. Plus it’s not like Arizona was a big market team with decades of history backing it.

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

In the 90's he only played in 3 post season games for Seattle.

Baseball is very much a team sport. See Trout, Mike 😃

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

I feel like he would have a bigger name if he played in a big city. LA, SF, Boston, Atlanta during the 90's. 

I don’t know. I feel like he was a big name when he was playing, even in Seattle. He was a five time all star in Seattle and finished top five in Cy Young voting four times, including the one win.

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

Imagine if he was a NYY during the 90's. 

The Yankees sucked in the early 90’s. They finally made the postseason in 95 and got knocked out by the Mariners 😃

Randy Johnson won both games he appeared in that series - as a started in game 3 and a reliever in game 5.

[saevel25]

3 minutes ago, billchao said:

I think it was more that he had a resurgence in Arizona. He was like 35 when he played for Arizona the first time. He won a Cy Young award in Seattle, and it could have been more. Plus it’s not like Arizona was a big market team with decades of history backing it.

He started his MLB career at 24. He didn't start a full year till he was 25. Today you can see young pitchers going as early as 20-21 years old. 

Felix Hernandez, pitcher for Seattle, started at the age of 20 pitching a full season. Also, he won the Cy Young with only 13 games won! I think I had him in fantasy baseball that year. I was pissed that Seattle couldn't score more than 3 runs a game. They were dead last in runs scored at 513, 74 runs behind the next team! 

7 minutes ago, billchao said:

Baseball is very much a team sport. See Trout, Mike 😃

Mike Trout gets way more recognition because of the era he plays in and because MLB pushed him as the face of the AL. Also, he plays in California. Much bigger baseball markets down in the big cities there. 

8 minutes ago, billchao said:

He was a five time all star in Seattle and finished top five in Cy Young voting four times, including the one win.

I may be miss remembering things, but being on this side of the Mississippi, I don't remember him getting much push as a super star in the sport. 

 

[billchao]

5 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

He started his MLB career at 24.

That’s pretty normal for baseball players though. Most guys state side play in college, don’t sign professional contracts until after they graduate, and then have to put in a couple of years in the minor leagues.

8 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Today you can see young pitchers going as early as 20-21 years old. 

You tend to see this more from international players.

9 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Felix Hernandez, pitcher for Seattle, started at the age of 20 pitching a full season.

He debuted at 19, BTW. Completely phenom and outlier. He’s kind of spent now though, at the ripe old age of 34.

I kind of feel bad for him because I really feel like Seattle burned him out.

12 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Also, he won the Cy Young with only 13 games won!

I was very happy for that because it showed the baseball writers were moving away from traditional counting stats.

14 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Mike Trout gets way more recognition because of the era he plays in and because MLB pushed him as the face of the AL. Also, he plays in California. Much bigger baseball markets down in the big cities there.

I’m just saying, postseason appearances don’t equate to individual player success or exposure.

Plus he plays for the wrong LA team if we’re talking about baseball markets.

16 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I may be miss remembering things, but being on this side of the Mississippi, I don't remember him getting much push as a super star in the sport. 

Top 5 pitchers in ‘95... go!

Clemens. Maddux. Johnson. Smoltz. I’m struggling to name a 5th. I guess I have to say Glavine.

[saevel25]

3 minutes ago, billchao said:

I was very happy for that because it showed the baseball writers were moving away from traditional counting stats.

Same. The pressure to have to pitch nearly perfect games to win because your team averaged 3.1 runs per game is absurd.

4 minutes ago, billchao said:

Clemens. Maddux. Johnson. Smoltz. I’m struggling to name a 5th. I guess I have to say Glavine.

Definitely some names I haven't heard in a while. On a side note, those Atlanta teams were just loaded with pitchers. 

 

[billchao]

I could have put Cone on my list. I was trying not to be Yankees biased 😃

[DeadMan]

Does it seem odd to anybody else that of the 20 top pitching seasons ranked by that metric, 17 are from 1994-2003? 

[tristanhilton85]

On 2/13/2021 at 3:27 PM, saevel25 said:

Say you round off the peak of Pedro from 1999-2003, he maintains the level of the other pitchers on that list from like 1995 till 2003. He had 8-10 years of elite pitching (top 5), but 3-4 years of just being the best pitcher in the world. 

I would say him and Randy Johnson are #1 and #2. I think Johnson somehow gets overshadowed by Maddux, Clemens, and Pedro. 

Also, he played on some OK Seattle teams. If Randy Johnson played for Boston or Atlanta during that timeframe I think his name would be considered more when you ask about great pitchers in the 90's and all time great. 

 

I'd agree with that. Sometimes great players are overlooked simply because the teams that they are on aren't very good.

IMO, Pedro is still the best I've ever seen.

[mdl]

On 2/13/2021 at 8:11 PM, DeadMan said:

Does it seem odd to anybody else that of the 20 top pitching seasons ranked by that metric, 17 are from 1994-2003? 

Well depends on which table you look at. But yeah, that era does seem over represented. Maybe it's something like the best pitchers were not actually super affected by all the juicing, while average pitchers got shelled? So then the adjustments boost the good pitchers from that era more than others?