Si Woo Kim Penalized One Stroke

[Club Rat]

Si Woo Kim's birdie negated after ball takes over a minute to fall; Matt Kuchar can't believe it

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A rules official penalized Si Woo Kim Saturday at RBC Heritage after Kim’s ball dangled on the edge of the hole for over a minute before falling.

Kuch argued hard for Kim indicating the ball never came to rest and was still in motion.

I've never heard of a rule being "Modified" as per the Rules Official !!! Bunch of BS IMO...

[David in FL]

That strikes me as a bad ruling. If it were anywhere else on the green, the ball would be allowed to continue rolling until it stopped. Regardless of how long that took.

Convince me that I’m wrong...

[Big C]

I guess if you think the ball was moving the whole time then sure, it’s a bad ruling. But it seems pretty obvious to me the ball came to rest and then fell over a minute later. From my vantage point it’s a no brainer that they got this one right.

[iacas]

No, you guys have got this one wrong.

The ball is “deemed” to be at rest in that situation.

Read up on Rule 13.3:

If the ball does not fall into the hole in this waiting time:
    »    The ball is treated as being at rest.
    »    If the ball then falls into the hole before it is played, the player has holed out with the previous stroke, but gets one penalty stroke added to the score for the hole.

1 hour ago, Club Rat said:

Kuch argued hard for Kim indicating the ball never came to rest and was still in motion.

I've never heard of a rule being "Modified" as per the Rules Official !!! Bunch of BS IMO...

The Rule wasn’t “modified” by the Rules Official. This is entirely by the book.

24 minutes ago, David in FL said:

That strikes me as a bad ruling. If it were anywhere else on the green, the ball would be allowed to continue rolling until it stopped. Regardless of how long that took.

Convince me that I’m wrong...

Read the Rules. Convince yourself, maybe? It’s pretty clear.

19 minutes ago, Big C said:

I guess if you think the ball was moving the whole time then sure, it’s a bad ruling.

Not a bad ruling even if you think the ball was “moving” for a minute.

[Rulesman]

The player is allowed a reasonable time to reach the hole and ten more seconds to wait to see whether the ball will fall into the hole.

 

I must say, I thought everyone knew the 10 second rule.🙄

Edited April 18, 2021 by Rulesman

[iacas]

The tweets:

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, Rulesman said:

The player is allowed a reasonable time to reach the hole and ten more seconds to wait to see whether the ball will fall into the hole.

 

I must say, I thought everyone knew the 10 second rule.🙄

I think they do/did. They believed the ball was still in motion which isn’t the same as waiting 10sec for a ball on the edge to drop. They assumed you can’t stroke a ball in motion.

Let’s not act like that is common knowledge and disregard that the player’s assumptions were reasonable.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Vinsk

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I think they do/did. They believed the ball was still in motion which isn’t the same as waiting 10sec for a ball on the edge to drop. They assumed you can’t stroke a ball in motion.

Let’s not act like that is common knowledge and disregard that the player’s assumptions aren’t reasonable.

As you now know it doesn’t matter if the ball is in motion or not. If a ball overhangs the hole, that’s the time you’re given, after which the Rules deem the ball to be at rest.

I didn’t think “everyone” knew that Rule but I thought more did than I’ve seen the last 12 hours.

There are, as usual, good reasons for this Rule to be as it is.

[Shindig]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

There are, as usual, good reasons for this Rule to be as it is.

For those who don't know, many years ago, before this rule, there was a player (I want to say it was Don January) who let a putt hang on the lip for something like half an hour during an event.  And fall it did.  I believe the rule was written in response to this incident, which was an extreme example of something that I believe was happening quite a bit. 

Similarly, I think the 14 club limit happened after an event had some players showing up with a full left and right handed set (this might have been one of the Ryder Cups in the 1920s).

[Zippo]

Just to be clear - it was the ball hanging over the lip that caused the timer to start? Instead of standing around and watching, could he have marked his ball and lifted it before it fell in, without penalty? Then replaced it and made the tap in? Or does having it over the lip preclude the marking and lifting?

If the ball had not been hanging over the lip and, while he was walking to mark it, a gust of wind or earth tremor had rolled the ball in I'm guessing no penalty, just remove the ball and replace it? Then mark or putt it?

And then, lastly and a bit off topic - does the mark need to be directly behind the ball? Can it be marked an inch or two behind the ball as long as the ball is returned to the mark?

[Shindig]

54 minutes ago, Zippo said:

Just to be clear - it was the ball hanging over the lip that caused the timer to start? Instead of standing around and watching, could he have marked his ball and lifted it before it fell in, without penalty? Then replaced it and made the tap in? Or does having it over the lip preclude the marking and lifting?

I believe you are allowed a reasonable amount of time (I don't think it's a predefined limit, but it's somewhere between Brian Gay walking right up after not knocking a putt in and Don January waiting half an hour, closer to the former than the latter) and then ten seconds, after which it is deemed at rest. 

[billchao]

1 hour ago, Zippo said:

Just to be clear - it was the ball hanging over the lip that caused the timer to start?

The timer rule exists specifically for a ball overhanging the hole because of the possibility that it may fall in if you wait long enough. There’s no reason to just stand around and watch a ball oscillate slightly otherwise.

1 hour ago, Zippo said:

Instead of standing around and watching, could he have marked his ball and lifted it before it fell in, without penalty? Then replaced it and made the tap in?

He could have marked it or he could have just tapped in, both for par. The penalty is simply the additional stroke he should have taken to hole out because he waited too long.

1 hour ago, Zippo said:

If the ball had not been hanging over the lip and, while he was walking to mark it, a gust of wind or earth tremor had rolled the ball in I'm guessing no penalty, just remove the ball and replace it? Then mark or putt it?

If the ball wasn’t marked and it was moved by natural forces, it has to be played from the new spot.

If it was lifted and replaced and then moved, it has to be replaced in it’s original spot.

1 hour ago, Zippo said:

And then, lastly and a bit off topic - does the mark need to be directly behind the ball? Can it be marked an inch or two behind the ball as long as the ball is returned to the mark?

A ball marker has to be directly behind or to the side of the ball or a measured distance from the original spot of the ball. You can’t just eyeball the marker a couple of inches from the ball.

[Zippo]

10 hours ago, billchao said:

The timer rule exists specifically for a ball overhanging the hole because of the possibility that it may fall in if you wait long enough. There’s no reason to just stand around and watch a ball oscillate slightly otherwise.

He could have marked it or he could have just tapped in, both for par. The penalty is simply the additional stroke he should have taken to hole out because he waited too long.

If the ball wasn’t marked and it was moved by natural forces, it has to be played from the new spot.

If it was lifted and replaced and then moved, it has to be replaced in it’s original spot.

A ball marker has to be directly behind or to the side of the ball or a measured distance from the original spot of the ball. You can’t just eyeball the marker a couple of inches from the ball.

Great answers. Thanks for taking the time!

[Club Rat]

11 hours ago, billchao said:

If the ball wasn’t marked and it was moved by natural forces, it has to be played from the new spot.

I had that thought when I started the thread. Had Kim announced his intention to putt out, then went through 
the process of reading the book, line up the putt etc, it would have given it time to take the course which eventually occurred.

[billchao]

21 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

I had that thought when I started the thread. Had Kim announced his intention to putt out, then went through 
the process of reading the book, line up the putt etc, it would have given it time to take the course which eventually occurred.

Same result. The ball is holed with his previous stroke and one stroke penalty is applied.

13.3 specifically governs a ball overhanging a hole.

[Birdieputt]

Playing devils advocate, if Kim thought the ball was still moving the would not 14.5 apply?  He may have saved himself a stroke by doing exactly what he did.  

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, Birdieputt said:

Playing devils advocate, if Kim thought the ball was still moving the would not 14.5 apply?  He may have saved himself a stroke by doing exactly what he did.  

I don’t think so because the rule is specific for a ball on the edge of the hole. Not just a ball on the green.

[Pretzel]

 

On 4/17/2021 at 6:15 PM, iacas said:

If the ball does not fall into the hole in this waiting time:
    »    The ball is treated as being at rest.
    »    If the ball then falls into the hole before it is played, the player has holed out with the previous stroke, but gets one penalty stroke added to the score for the hole.

This is exactly the problem though, it's absurd to claim that a moving ball is at rest just because you decided it's been moving too long. It's completely arbitrary and perfectly contrary to the truth of the situation. It's no different than telling a player they need to pick up their ball and walk back 30 yards to drop it after their tee shot, because it had been traveling for more than 10 seconds so it must be replaced to where it was determined to be "at rest" regardless of the ball's actual condition. Encouraging or even requiring people to take a stroke at a moving (not oscillating) ball also directly contradicts other rules that prevent intentionally hitting a moving ball, which is what leads to this level of confusion in the first place.

Rules are fair when applied consistently, as they were here. This ruling was correct and fair, given the text of the current rules. The ball is treated as holed by the previous shot, and a one-stroke penalty is applied for that hole (same end result as if the player had simply tapped the ball in themselves instead of waiting).

This does not mean that the rule itself is correct and should not be changed, if only for the sake of consistency. The rules changes from 2019 were a big step forwards for the game, but occasions like this show that there is still progress to be made. Players should not be waiting unnecessarily when a ball sits on the lip, which is the current intent of the rule. Players should also never be required to hit ball that they and their playing partners can clearly see is still moving, which is the current consequence of the rule and directly contradicts rule 10.1d.

I believe that there is a very simple change that can be made here, which would prevent this contradiction and make the rules easier to follow and understand without defeating the original purpose of the rule.

Quote

a. Waiting Time to See If Ball Overhanging Hole Will Fall into Hole

If any part of a player’s ball overhangs the lip of the hole:

• The player is allowed a reasonable time to reach the hole and ten more seconds to wait to see whether the ball will fall into the hole.

• If the ball falls into the hole in this waiting time, the player has holed out with the previous stroke.

• If the waiting time has passed and the ball then falls into the hole before it is played, the player has holed out with the previous stroke, but gets one penalty stroke added to the score for the hole.If the ball then falls into the hole before it is played, the player has holed out with the previous stroke, but gets one penalty stroke added to the score for the hole.

Exception - Ball Has Not Come To Rest Before End Of The Waiting Time: If a ball in motion during the waiting time remains in motion and falls into the hole, even after the waiting time has passed, the player has holed out with the previous stroke and there is no penalty. A ball which remains in motion during and after the waiting time is covered by Rule 11, not by this Rule.

For a player who makes a stroke at a ball in motion, even after the waiting time has expired, see Rule 10.1d

You still get your ten seconds for a ball at rest, as per usual, but you are no longer allowed or required to hit a ball in motion. Likewise you are not penalized an additional stroke for factors outside your control, such as conditions that mean your ball continues to roll for more than 10 seconds before falling into the hole. It doesn't affect pace of play and it makes the rules much more consistent