Changing Deep Habits

[SEMI_Duffer]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

Your shoulders have absolutely lifted your arms. Your left upper arm is probably 40° from your spine at set up and 90° at the top.

Well, yes.  The point was I'm not lifting the club with my arms, per se. They're just following my shoulders, which are following my torso.

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

This topic is not about your specific swing or what you’re working on but feel ain’t real.

My swing wasn't the point of posting that, but to illustrate what something looks like vs. what's really happening aren't necessarily the same thing.

I suppose I could've hunted-down some-or-another YT video to make the point, but I had that one directly on-hand.

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

P.S. Please just embed YouTube videos.

Those aren't YT videos. They're off my own server.  Can I embed those? I couldn't figure out how, if so.

[Big Lex]

This has all probably been said already, but ... It's sort of hardwired into me that if I am getting a bad result, then the motion (or whatever I'm doing) is wrong. This triggers an impulse to change something. I think it's hardwired into all of us, honestly, or we'd all be dead before we are 10 years old probably. I find it very hard to override this impulse even though it is essential to do so in order to learn something new. And I totally get the sort of bizarre, awkward feeling that the correct, powerful move - when new and when we are trying to learn it - often feels strange and even weak. 

This is where I think you have to have some other type of feedback to get over the hump. A teacher (who knows his/her stuff) who can watch and give encouragement to us and prevent us from wandering into the weeds is one way. Another way is video. Sometimes positive reinforcement from video is enough to keep me on the path. Obviously, eventually, we have to feel solid contact and a correct clubface. If I can't get there, eventually I have to ask for help from a teacher. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Big Lex

[GolfLug]

15 minutes ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

Those aren't YT videos. They're off my own server.  Can I embed those? I couldn't figure out how, if so.

Upload them to YT and then embed here. 

22 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I spent a month trying a new back swing feel with my coach awhile back. The position was much better on video. But I couldn’t remotely hit a ball. It was like a toddler hitting If I even made contact.

JFYI, the lesson I took from @iacas in Sept 2020 is only now starting to show in my swing on camera per @iacas.  Of course it is still evloving. Even a seemingly straightforward motion can be ridiculously hard to ingrain. I was convinced at least ten times along the way that I had 'gotten it'.  

[SEMI_Duffer]

4 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Upload them to YT and then embed here. 

I don't do YT, other than as an unregistered viewer.  I've my reasons and I don't want to haul the thread OT explaining them.

If providing a URL to my own videos is unacceptable I simply won't post them any longer.  No problemo 

[GolfLug]

36 minutes ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

I don't do YT, other than as an unregistered viewer.  I've my reasons and I don't want to haul the thread OT explaining them.

If providing a URL to my own videos is unacceptable I simply won't post them any longer.  No problemo 

Understood... I don't think it is unacceptable by TST rules or anything. It's just that not many will want to click on a private link from someone they don't know or only know online for their own protection. For example, I am prohibited to since I am on a work laptop. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by GolfLug

[iacas]

1 hour ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

Well, yes.  The point was I'm not lifting the club with my arms, per se. They're just following my shoulders, which are following my torso.

No. Your arms lift up off your torso. Like 40°.

What you continue to insist you do not do, you do. As does almost every golfer.

[SEMI_Duffer]

24 minutes ago, iacas said:

No. Your arms lift up off your torso. Like 40°.

What you continue to insist you do not do, you do. As does almost every golfer.

Hmmm... Fair enough. I concede 

[Vinsk]

4 hours ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

Well, yes.  The point was I'm not lifting the club with my arms, per se. They're just following my shoulders, which are following my torso.

So now we realize you’re lifting. No big deal. My point is if I do passively what you think you’re doing, my lead arm ends up well below my shoulder line and horribly bent. 
 

In order for me to ‘change the picture’ I have to feel as though I’m lifting my arms straight into the air from the golf ball while I rotate back. I’ve created some nice top positions doing this. But that feeling has me so discombobulated that swinging down is just damn near impossible for me.

[SEMI_Duffer]

Well, at this point I'm inclined to bow out. I think I've embarrassed myself enough for one day  and, worse, this is starting to make me think about what I'm doing to get where I'm getting, which is one thing of which I'm trying hard to rid myself.

Good luck with your goals!

[Vinsk]

5 minutes ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

Well, at this point I'm inclined to bow out. I think I've embarrassed myself enough for one day  and, worse, this is starting to make me think about what I'm doing to get where I'm getting, which is one thing of which I'm trying hard to rid myself.

Good luck with your goals!

Lol. No worries. Stay around! We may all learn something valuable. And hey, I’ve embarrassed myself spectacularly worse than you on this site many times….cheers!

[billchao]

21 hours ago, iacas said:

Some people can. And it's okay. I let them - I've had people make such DRASTIC changes that they have no idea (yet) how to get the club to the ball from there.

This remains one of my favorite quotes:

The Three Imperatives and Essentials operate to correct faulty procedures. So, if they seem elusive, it is invariably because you are trying to execute them while you hit the ball - in your accustomed manner. That must be reversed. Learn to do those things even if you miss the ball - until you no longer miss it. There is no successful alternative (3-B).

The red part is the part I'm talking about.

I guess I can see it, but I don't know if I have the right personality to be onboard with that. If I get done with a lesson and can't hit the ball at all, I would be very frustrated. Can't honestly say I'd stick with it if that were the case, like @Vinsk.

10 hours ago, boogielicious said:

I understand that while I’m working on stuff bad looking shots will happen and that I shouldn’t care. But I do have to hit at least one good shot at the end of the session or I won’t have the confidence I can do it on the course. I like practicing and improving at practice, but I also need to see it on the course.

For me, hitting bad shots is expected, but I'm also expecting to hit some good shots, too.

10 hours ago, boogielicious said:

My weakest club has always been my driver. I’ve been working on a piece changing my left wrist at impact for a couple of months now to help control the face and align the face with path better. Part of the drill has me hitting severe hooks to exaggerate the motion. This shows my hands are doing the right things. I can do this at the range and at slower speeds on video. But when I get to the course, I fear the hook and revert and get all tense. My swing gets short and makes the round less enjoyable. I haven’t figured out how to translate the change to the course yet.

You hit hooks on the range with your driver when you make swings at speed, right? Then you're likely to hit some while playing, as well. Your good shots are getting better, right? And happening more frequently?

I think a big part to committing to a change while playing is accepting that you're going to hit some bad misses, too. I'll straight up top the ball at least once a round. Hell, I almost whiffed playing with @DaveP043. It was kind of a "well that happened" moment, but then I had basically the same shot again because it might have moved a foot and hit that one well.

10 hours ago, boogielicious said:

I’m not one of those people. I always want to be better at anything I do. I can do a lot of things really well, but getting to the next level in golf has been a real challenge.

I'm guessing quite a few of us are like this. Especially if they're commenting in this topic.

8 hours ago, Vinsk said:

And no, I’ve got no business having 620MB irons. But they’re beautiful and I love hitting those occasional butter strikes with them.🙂

That's why I own a set of Mizuno MP4s. But they've been in the basement for a couple of years because I eventually decided to get clubs that work for me 

7 hours ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

That, as I'm sure you're aware, is all wrong.

You can't really tell someone their feel is wrong, especially if it's been validated with video.

7 hours ago, nevets88 said:

I think the way to judge that, when you're making changes is like yeah, you hit a lot of bad shots, but a few shots sneak in here and there where you've actually changed the picture and made good contact and that shot is better than your best shot with the old swing.

Right, that's what I'm saying. I know I'm going to hit bad shots. But I should hit good shots, too.

6 hours ago, saevel25 said:

It depends on how exaggerated and how slow you can swing. I outright almost swung over the ball once up in Erie, and the motion looked really good on camera. 

Yea but that's like once or twice, right? Not like you took a lesson and couldn't find the ball with the clubface for a month straight, like how @Vinsk described.

4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

This is where I think you have to have some other type of feedback to get over the hump. A teacher (who knows his/her stuff) who can watch and give encouragement to us and prevent us from wandering into the weeds is one way. Another way is video. Sometimes positive reinforcement from video is enough to keep me on the path.

Or a support group. Like maybe a website of some sort full of other people with golf problems 

39 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

In order for me to ‘change the picture’ I have to feel as though I’m lifting my arms straight into the air from the golf ball while I rotate back. I’ve created some nice top positions doing this. But that feeling has me so discombobulated that swinging down is just damn near impossible for me.

If the feel going back is right, then stick with it and find the right feel for the downswing. It may be that all the time you spend on the range is working against you, because you have so many more reps of your regular swing baked in than I do mine that it's harder for you to retrain your muscles.

If you could somehow turn mindlessly hitting balls into focusing on changing a particular aspect of your swing as your meditation, you'll probably make those changes.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

If you could somehow turn mindlessly hitting balls into focusing on changing a particular aspect of your swing as your meditation, you'll probably make those changes.

This is a good point. I guess I just have to commit to not hitting balls so much. Focusing on changes rather than just outcome I guess. Of course it doesn’t help that my mis-hits are usually violent shanks that have people running for cover. Lol. This though has me thinking….I’m intrigued for sure.

[nevets88]

It's something people rarely ever do based on my own anecdotal experience on ranges. I mean you see videos here people rehearsing for a long time 2-3 minutes and then hit, that's not the norm in the real world. I see no one on the range doing this, I'm the kook making all these moves and not hitting a ball. The other day a summer camp kid on a cart yelled hit the ball. It's hard to do something that everyone else isn't doing. I'm in the middle of 40 balls and a guy comes over with a large bucket and he's leaving before I am.

[saevel25]

2 hours ago, billchao said:

Yea but that's like once or twice, right? Not like you took a lesson and couldn't find the ball with the clubface for a month straight, like how @Vinsk described.

True, but I also might not have been exaggerating as much as that time. 

[Zippo]

14 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Absolutely. Hell I learned to ride a unicycle pretty quickly when I was young. I think one of the difficult things with golf is nothing feels like it’s powerful to me. Meaning, the way I feel correct positions feels like the least efficient way to generate power.

I know exactly what you mean. It's like watching Bryson. He looks like a frozen stiff with his elbows locked seemingly rigid and you think he can't possibly get any distance. But then - damn!

[imsys0042]

I took some lessons and did a lot of practice earlier in the year but my downswing really drifted from what my local pro wanted me to do.   I've been hitting a lot of good shots, but it's definitely more error prone and causing me to miss both sides again.   Last weekend was the Club Championship and since playing really good a month ago, I've dropped off a bit.   So I spent some time at home going over what I was doing and decided to walk 9 holes last night.

Man, it is sooooo easy to lose what you are doing.   I hit the ball much better last night.   3 balls OB for 9 holes, but everything else pretty solid or "good misses".   Very encouraging.

I also had a 3 week issue where I was exaggerating the club position at setup that was killing me.  Once I figured that out, things were a lot better.   Unfortunately I could not practice much or play more than once per week for a spell and I really did lose some things I spent time trying to incorporate.   Like I said earlier, I figure this is a two year journey to really work on my game and then I am going to see where I am.   I am lucky enough to play year round, even if it's hitting off the mats or sloppy weather in the winter.   Anything that keeps me swinging at a ball helps.

[Big Lex]

23 hours ago, billchao said:

Or a support group. Like maybe a website of some sort full of other people with golf problems 

I know you're probably looking more for feedback or advice regarding how someone conquers the physical aspect of changing deep habits. But, not for nothing, I do think this is an area where mental skills are important...

This book is awesome:  Chop Wood Carry Water: How to Fall in Love with the Process of Becoming Great: Medcalf, Joshua: 9781536984408.

I'm thinking of the section on the NEGATIVE power of being discouraged, and how simply doing the correct thing over and over can eventually lead to learning and growth, even when it seemed it wasn't helping for a long time.

Medcalf isn't for everyone, and I'm not trying to imply that working on the swing movement itself isn't the most important thing for you or anyone else...but maybe this will help. It's a great book. 

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Big Lex said:

This book is awesome:

I refuse to believe that anything by Josh Medcalf is awesome or even good. The guy is a hoaxster with horrible grammar and spelling who completely games the system to get good reviews. He’s a con artist and a joke.