Reasonable Driver Club Speed Formula to Aim for?

[p1n9183]

Distance is always better if you can keep the % of accuracy the same. If you swing out of the fences to gain 20..30 more yards you are going to loose in the end just because your accuracy is going to get you out of play to many times. The idea is to gain those 20..30 yards not by swinging harder but smarter.
The idea of the formula is to give you an idea if you are close to your average potential (considering an average physic of a pga tour player) or how much room of improvement you have. 

Here is my current speed journey, this is what I mean with swinging smarter not harder...

On November '22 (spring) I played the TailHade Cup (An international scratch tournament), playing on a hard rock course I was averaging 260 off the tee. I was always the shorter hitter in all 4 rounds. Some would only outdrive me by 20 and others by 60. After that tournament I committed myself to reach 300 for the next TailHade Cup in November in '23.

Little context.. I'm a feel player that guides the ball with a high hugh push draw. Because my driver was to heavy I played it gripped down to the shaft.

I afforded an hour with trackman to get fitted. Amazing experience. The result was that I was swinging 104 club head, launch 16° and 2300 spin. 
I tested with lighter shafts and was able to gain a couple miles per hour of speed but was spinning the ball around 3000. The fitter told me that my spin loft was to high and told me that I needed to compress the ball more. But that for the moment the best I could do was to get the driver with less loft I could get and fit it with the shaft I liked the most in the fitting. Did exactly that and was able to reach 280 hitting the ball with a little more compression (this took practice). I was doing exactly the same effort but I was driving it 20 yards further. I didn't even have more speed in me, just the equipment was a better fit to me. 

A couple week ago I started again with this distance quest and watched a lot of videos about gaining distance, different kind of mechanic changes to get more speed. The idea was of course to make the same effort but to make my swing more efficient so it will produce more speed.

4 things did it for me:
- Wider stance. I normally use a really narrow stance. Wasn't able to apply any kind of ground force to my shots.
- Higher hands at the top of the swing. My hands used to be at head height, now they are above it. I lift them as high as I can. 
- Swing to the target but the ball, interesting psychological stuff that works. The body knows that the objective of the swing is to kit the ball, it knows it have to deaccelerate after impact, sometimes the body start to deaccelerate before impact loosing speed, so you need to keep accelerating after hitting to avoid this from happening. 
- Learn how to lead with the body and let the arms follow.

Having a skytrak at home make it easier to look up for improvement in ball speed. Those 4 things in conjunction gave me an extra 13 miles in ball speed despite giving it the exact same effort I do in tournament conditions.
Off course I went out to the course and tested it, after and exhausting afternoon at my home course, 0 lost balls, and 64 Drives measured I averaged 280 yards, but this time in winter and in slightly soft fairways.

One thing I tested this weekend also was a ball with high compression rating, it was hotter of the face but with more spin resulting in the same total distance than my current low compression ball. So there was another thing to work on, if I'm able to lower the spin then I could gain a couple more yards just because of hitting a ball better suited for my swing speed. 

Yesterday, I figured out that with a little stronger grip on my right hand (it was neutral at the beginning) the face was presenting to the ball with lower loft (less spin loft), making the spin to drop and of course gaining a couple of miles in speed. Numbers jumped 20 yards in the simulator, I don't think that is totally accurate but it can definitively give me 10 more yards in real life. Will test it this weekend but I should be around 290 and around 310 on the summer with hard fairways witch is beyond my initial spectations. 

In conclusion, is not about swinging to the fences, but to get your swing to be as efficient as it can be, and then to get the equipment that suit you best to give you the optimal launch condition on order to maximize distance always swinging in total control of the ball.    
 

 

[snapfade]

22 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I mean if you are pulling your SW then you done bro.. 😁. Ain't none else to do but pray it rains and the 19th hole is still open....

I'm a walking 19th hole.

[tourproto]

3 hours ago, klineka said:

Don't make assumptions. Using amateurs as the measuring stick actually supports my claims even further as "Extra driving distance is worth more to high-scoring golfers than low scoring golfers"

 

I would love to hear statistics that support your side of the argument. 

Based on the facts and data that I have seen, yes my mind is made up at the moment. That doesn't mean that I won't change my mind if substantial data comes out against what I believe.

 

I have seen significantly more evidence showing the benefits of increasing driver clubhead speed and the importance of speed over accuracy than I have seen the other way around, so please present me some evidence showing that accuracy is a bigger separator than distance between various handicap levels.

 

 

 

Yep, yep, and yep. 

Driving distance has a bigger separation value across ALL handicap levels than accuracy does. That's a proven fact. 

Surely an engineer in the big data & analytics space should be willing to have an open mind when presented with data that goes against what they believe, right?

Until you can present facts/stats that support your position (other than "well it works for me") I don't have much of an interest in continuing this conversation.

So first off, the table you reference already makes my point: "a typical golfer". Applying broad generalizations to specific cases is doesn't always work. I know this table and have seen it before. I am the flip opposite. I gain more strokes by being in the fairway vs. being 20 yards closer and I have 10+ years of golf rounds that support it.

For me, it isn't a matter of time or practice. Before getting serious about golf, I was a 12 hdcp (not index, that's how long ago it was). I could hit 280+ yard drives all day, but rarely in my fairway. Among other fixes (too  strong a grip, too long a backswing etc), my instructor had me start dialing back my swing speed. I went from hitting 24% of fairways to 70% of fairways and my handi dropped to mid-single digits. The rest was short game, bunker play, putting and course management, and by working on that I got to scratch+ and stayed that way for more than a decade. (Still a low single digit, but maybe play 1x/month as I have other interests that consume my time)

I do not believe I have the ability to swing harder AND maintain control. For me it is not a linear relationship when approaching max SS.  I CAN swing harder, but it ALWAYS comes with increased dispersion, and on the courses I play, it is a negative tradeoff. I have experimented with "swinging faster" several times since but (for me) the result is still the same, worse scores for 18 holes.  Many of the courses I play are TREE LINED from tee to green. The penalty for being off the fairway is more expensive than getting 20 yards more distance. Recovery from the rough or punching out from behind a tree is a minimum 0.5 stroke penalty, whereas a 2 club longer shot is a maximum 0.25 penalty for my game. 

I am very satisfied with my game and don't spend my days wishing I could "hit the ball further". I regularly beat all of my playing companions and I play a fraction of the time they do. I have a repeatable and controllable swing and have no issue reaching any par-3 in one, any par-4 in two and 1/3 of the par-5s in 2. I know my game very well, and in my original post in this thread, I can get close to your math equation but it isn't worth it to me. 

[klineka]

3 minutes ago, tourproto said:

So first off, the table you reference already makes my point: "a typical golfer". Applying broad generalizations to specific cases is doesn't always work. I know this table and have seen it before. I am the flip opposite. I gain more strokes by being in the fairway vs. being 20 yards closer and I have 10+ years of golf rounds that support it.

For me, it isn't a matter of time or practice. Before getting serious about golf, I was a 12 hdcp (not index, that's how long ago it was). I could hit 280+ yard drives all day, but rarely in my fairway. Among other fixes (too  strong a grip, too long a backswing etc), my instructor had me start dialing back my swing speed. I went from hitting 24% of fairways to 70% of fairways and my handi dropped to mid-single digits. The rest was short game, bunker play, putting and course management, and by working on that I got to scratch+ and stayed that way for more than a decade. (Still a low single digit, but maybe play 1x/month as I have other interests that consume my time)

I do not believe I have the ability to swing harder AND maintain control. For me it is not a linear relationship when approaching max SS.  I CAN swing harder, but it ALWAYS comes with increased dispersion, and on the courses I play, it is a negative tradeoff. I have experimented with "swinging faster" several times since but (for me) the result is still the same, worse scores for 18 holes.  Many of the courses I play are TREE LINED from tee to green. The penalty for being off the fairway is more expensive than getting 20 yards more distance. Recovery from the rough or punching out from behind a tree is a minimum 0.5 stroke penalty, whereas a 2 club longer shot is a maximum 0.25 penalty for my game. 

I am very satisfied with my game and don't spend my days wishing I could "hit the ball further". I regularly beat all of my playing companions and I play a fraction of the time they do. I have a repeatable and controllable swing and have no issue reaching any par-3 in one, any par-4 in two and 1/3 of the par-5s in 2. I know my game very well, and in my original post in this thread, I can get close to your math equation but it isn't worth it to me. 

I stand by my statement

8 hours ago, klineka said:

Until you can present facts/stats that support your position (other than "well it works for me") I don't have much of an interest in continuing this conversation.

My statement was that driving distance is a bigger separator across all handicap levels than accuracy. You haven't presented a single fact that proves my claim wrong.

[tourproto]

17 minutes ago, klineka said:

I stand by my statement

My statement was that driving distance is a bigger separator across all handicap levels than accuracy. You haven't presented a single fact that proves my claim wrong.

There is no fact I can give you other than this. Average score for 18 holes going for max distance for 5 years: 81.7 (par 72, course rating 72.7, slope 137), Average score with controlled swing for 5 years 75.3.  Average drive went from 278 yards to 255 yards. FACTS. 

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, tourproto said:

There is no fact I can give you other than this. Average score for 18 holes going for max distance for 5 years: 81.7 (par 72, course rating 72.7, slope 137), Average score with controlled swing for 5 years 75.3.  Average drive went from 278 yards to 255 yards. FACTS. 

There’s probably a little dishonesty in this data…and you know this.

[Vinsk]

13 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

There’s probably a little dishonesty in this data…and you know this.

@tourprotoSo a 23 yard difference was so large a factor that hitting your 7i instead of a 9i lowered your score? That the vast majority of your ‘max distance’ drives were so penalizing that your score went up? That you improved your ball striking so much that hitting a two club difference on your approach shots lowered your score? That your approach shots were that much better but you couldn’t improve your driver swing without causing total chaos to your score? I don’t buy it.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Vinsk

[tourproto]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

There’s probably a little dishonesty in this data…and you know this.

What a nice way to call me a liar. What a welcome. Thanks. 

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

@tourprotoSo a 23 yard difference was so large a factor that hitting your 7i instead of a 9i lowered your score? That the vast majority of your ‘max distance’ drives were so penalizing that your score went up? That you improved your ball striking so much that hitting a two club difference on your approach shots lowered your score? That your approach shots were that much better but you couldn’t improve your driver swing without causing total chaos to your score? I don’t buy it.

You really are so stuck in your mindset that you can't see anything other than "your way". The issue is I played on courses that put a high premium on accuracy. 20 yards right or left of the fairway left you behind a tree or with overhanging limbs where there was no shot to the green. Whether you punched out, or tried to hook or slice a ball back into play with distance almost never got you on, or near the green, so you are still playing a 3rd shot to the green and had to scramble for par which often didn't work out (for me). 

You are somehow imagining a course where you have a nice 2-3" cut of rough 20 yards out on both sides of the fairway and no trees or bunkers. Yeah if I played a course like that, I would swing for the fences. But that isn't reality. Distance WITHOUT accuracy can be penal. Next, you will say just hit a 3 wood. Why would I hit a 3 wood when I can hit a driver with 70% accuracy 25 yards further than I can hit my 3 wood which was only slightly better in terms of accuracy. 

Bottom line while for the "average" golfer 20 more yards may improve their score even from the rough (yeah on a 110 slope course with a course rating of 68 for par 72), it doesn't work that way for me. But feel free to convince everyone else to play golf that way. Don't mind me. I'm a happy camper playing the way I do with the equipment I have, not reaching for max yards, but happy with max yards -20 but being in the fairway or very close to it. 

9 hours ago, StuM said:

I think the "Speed/Distance" vs "Accuracy" is a balancing act.  If a high percentage of drives are really long but frequently in the woods or OB then I suspect going long would hurt. Alternatively, being long and only a few yards off the fairway or only rarely in the woods/OB would help a lot.

Yup, and I favor accuracy. and when I go for max distance I am like your first example, not the 2nd. YMMV

[tourproto]

On 6/26/2023 at 7:29 AM, billchao said:

My personal experience makes me an outlier. So does the data, unfortunately 😃

 

21 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Lol. Well at least when you say personal experience, yours is backed by data of your play. The vast majority of players who deny what @klineka said simply ignore the data that supports it and don’t track what they believe refutes it.

So when @billchao says he is an outlier you believe him, but when I say the same thing you call me a liar. Interesting. Good to know that you are another inconsistent internet quarterback. At least I know one person I can stop replying to on this forum. 

[iacas]

21 hours ago, tourproto said:

I have worked the numbers and they don't work for me.

The only person here talking about you is you. We can't know what you did or didn't do. We can't know what other changes happened in your game. All we can do is speak to generalities.

And before we go on here… play golf however you like to do it. Nobody's really trying to change how you play. So, don't get upset with others here.

For example…

On 6/25/2023 at 11:13 PM, tourproto said:

I hit 70% of fairways when swinging at 103-105. Not a fan of bomb and gouge. I really prefer hitting my 2nd shot from the fairway and not from behind a tree, even if it is 20 yards further back, 

On the Tour, players who hit the ball far are typically the better drivers by Strokes Gained. They're also less accurate if you measure accuracy by "fairways hit %."

But… they're not behind the trees much more often. But they are 20 yards closer EVERY time.

• Rory: 1.052 SG:OTT, 327.6 yards, 53.06%
• Zac Blair: -0.330 SG:OTT, 279.1 yards, 68.12%

So… Zac hits 9.52 fairways per round, Rory hits 7.42. That's about two fairways per round where Zac is in a better spot than Rory (but barely, given that the rough is about a 70-yard penalty and Rory is 48 yards past Zac). The other TWELVE times per round, Rory is in a better spot than Zac: he's in the rough or the fairway when Zac is, too, but he's 48 yards past Zac those 12 times.

Rory: nearly 50-yard advantage 12 times
Zac: small advantage 2 times

21 hours ago, tourproto said:

For me, I have tried it, and it doesn't work for me. I score worse (on average) when swinging out of my shoes off the tee. 

Nobody's suggesting "swinging out of your shoes."

3 hours ago, tourproto said:

So first off, the table you reference already makes my point: "a typical golfer". Applying broad generalizations to specific cases is doesn't always work.

We can't apply it to you because none of us know anything about you or how you play.

3 hours ago, tourproto said:

I gain more strokes by being in the fairway vs. being 20 yards closer and I have 10+ years of golf rounds that support it.

Then by all means… continue to play that way if that's what you enjoy.

2 hours ago, tourproto said:

There is no fact I can give you other than this. Average score for 18 holes going for max distance for 5 years: 81.7 (par 72, course rating 72.7, slope 137), Average score with controlled swing for 5 years 75.3.  Average drive went from 278 yards to 255 yards. FACTS. 

Again… for one guy. You. You're the only one here talking about you. None of the rest of us are (or can).

4 minutes ago, tourproto said:

You really are so stuck in your mindset that you can't see anything other than "your way".

It's not "his way."

4 minutes ago, tourproto said:

You are somehow imagining a course where you have a nice 2-3" cut of rough 20 yards out on both sides of the fairway and no trees or bunkers. Yeah if I played a course like that, I would swing for the fences.

No, he isn't. He's just sharing what the data says, and the data is accumulated from thousands of golf courses. (Perhaps not the data in that chart from ESC, but it's held up.)

[billchao]

1 hour ago, tourproto said:

 

So when @billchao says he is an outlier you believe him, but when I say the same thing you call me a liar. Interesting. Good to know that you are another inconsistent internet quarterback. At least I know one person I can stop replying to on this forum. 

To be fair, I have over 11,000 posts since joining this forum 11 years ago and you joined this week. We don’t know who you are or how you play the game. My trials and tribulations are well documented here. I have played golf with many people on this website, @Vinsk included. I am an outlier in many ways in golf. This is backed up both anecdotally and with data. The people who know me know this as fact and not a matter of belief.

All of that is just a long winded way of saying if you’re offended, don’t be. Odds are that a random person on the internet is more likely to fall within statistical norms than outside of them. Hell, if I joined another golf website talking about how I have a single digit swing and carry my drives 270 but can’t seem to break 90 lately there’s no doubt in my mind they would call me a liar.

Nobody is discrediting you personally because, quite frankly, we don’t know you.

[saevel25]

We all wish we can be unicorns, but most likely we fall with in some bin of average. 

[ChetlovesMer]

Alrighty then......

If I may summarize what we learned so far. 

The OP, @p1n9183, created this thread to discuss a formula created to help people set a SMART (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant and Time-Bound) goal for how much swing speed they may or may not be able to gain. I appreciate the idea. @p1n9183 is trying to do more than just say something like you can probably gain 3% or what ever. 

We all got off topic when @tourproto said that increasing your swing speed is actually a disadvantage and the only way to do so is "to swing out of your shoes". 

Some of us suggested that there's a lot of data showing that hitting it closer to the green is better. @tourproto said (I'm paraphrasing) No, because the ONLY way to hit it farther is throw your mechanics out the window and therefore you will hit way too many balls into the woods. 

@klineka said (again, I'm paraphrasing) it is possible to increase your swing speed over time by increasing your baseline and that would improve everyone's game. @tourproto said No, the only way he can swing any faster is to swing out of his shoes and hit more balls in the woods. 

@iacas presented data showing that there is an advantage to hitting it farther. @tourproto (I'm paraphrasing) said, No, there's not an advantage to hitting it farther. 

We all got a little sidetracked discussing whether or not @billchao is an outlier. (BTW - I've been saying @billchao is an outlier for years now. He is one of the very few men who can actually wear a white belt and not look like Herb Tarlek.)

Somebody asked @tourproto for data and he presented some. Some people accused @tourproto of making up the data. I can't say for sure, but I will say the data did kind of have the feel of being made up on the spot. BTW - 65% of the statistics I quote are made up on the spot. 

*** Back to the original topic ***

Now if I may, I'd like to get us back on track and talk about the formula that @p1n9183 created. Whether or not you believe there's an advantage to increasing your swing speed is irrelevant to this thread. The question is how good is @p1n9183's formula.  

A few posts back, @StuM made a great point. I think including stats from the Champions (Senior's) Tour would help us old guys in getting a realistic idea of what might still be possible for us. 

Much like @TourSpoon I'm well into my 50's and for me the formula says I should be able to achieve over 112 mph. Today 103 seems to be about my average, my best swings get up to 106, but very very rarely any more than that. I have been working on my swing speed the last couple of off seasons and I feel like 112 isn't a SMART goal, but much more of a stretch goal. Like @TourSpoon I said, I'd love to get there, but I'm not sure its in the cards. 

I think one of the biggest challenges in creating a formula like this is taking into account a person's natural athleticism. I don't possess very much of that. Other guys do. I'm not naturally fast at any sport, let alone golf. My high-school football coach used to say I had "deceptive speed". He said I was even slower than I look. 

 

 

 

[snapfade]

What I got from this whole thread is that it cost me 150 bucks, I bought a Shot Scope, it comes with 16 sensors, so I get to add two clubs to the bag right?

[ChetlovesMer]

2 minutes ago, snapfade said:

What I got from this whole thread is that it cost me 150 bucks, I bought a Shot Scope, it comes with 16 sensors, so I get to add two clubs to the bag right?

Cool. Good for you. Once you get it set up, join The Sand Trap Leaderboard. 

As far as the two extra clubs... Well, you may want to discuss that with the guys you play against. 

 

[snapfade]

9 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Cool. Good for you. Once you get it set up, join The Sand Trap Leaderboard. 

As far as the two extra clubs... Well, you may want to discuss that with the guys you play against. 

 

I worked a tournament once and at the check in this guy showed up with one of those old school staff bags, gigantic thing, had to have at least three dozen clubs of various makes and models, close to half were persimmon woods.  It was like he went to the junk store and bought the whole lot. LOL

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, snapfade said:

What I got from this whole thread is that it cost me 150 bucks, I bought a Shot Scope, it comes with 16 sensors, so I get to add two clubs to the bag right?

It shouldn’t cost you that much if you use the code in the sidebar. 😀

Shipping?

[snapfade]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

It shouldn’t cost you that much if you use the code in the sidebar. 😀

Shipping?

Well that's just lovely. 149.99 tag, tax, title out the door with free shipping. Hey I was under an enormous amount of pressure LOL, I didn't even think about looking at the sidebar which I see every day.