Tips for Starting Over

[laso2687]

Hi all,

I decided to start over learning golf but have no idea where to actually start. The goal is to get rid of some of the bad habits I’ve more than likely created, and get more serious as I have more rounds with clients and with work presenting themselves.

Worth noting:

- I have never had a lesson, pretty much taught myself from online tips and videos, so have created some bad habits more than likely

- Decently well rounded athlete coming from volleyball and softball, but have been playing (trying) golf for 10ish years

Any tips or suggestions on how someone that has been playing golf can start over as a beginner? Anything helps

[Darkfrog]

Find a good instructor and take lessons. If the cost is unpalatable (in my area lessons can get expensive), maybe find a reputable online coaching service - with cellphone & tripod you can get good video and submit for feedback.

[billchao]

You can’t really start over once you’ve been playing because your body has learned how to do certain things in the swing already. The only real way to start over is to change what side you hit the ball from.

That said, find a good instructor and take lessons. You can build on and correct things you’ve already ingrained.

[iacas]

I would:

• Make sure you grip the club properly.
• Make sure you set up properly.
• Make sure your body primarily carries the arms and the club around you by pivoting/turning, and that your arms primarily move your hands and the club up and down.

The last bullet point is probably the single biggest flaw I see in golfers.

For the first:

For the second:

(And the topic from @mvmac at the top of that topic.)

[SEMI_Duffer]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

You can’t really start over once you’ve been playing because your body has learned how to do certain things in the swing already.

I don't believe that's true.  (If it is: I've wasted a lot of time doing just that.)

[klineka]

5 minutes ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

I don't believe that's true.  (If it is: I've wasted a lot of time doing just that.)

I think what @billchao might mean is that once you start swinging and playing, your swing will have a certain "DNA" or pattern that you will have and it's not really possible to just hit a button and suddenly have a completely different looking swing that sticks and is repeatable.

It's certain possible to change pieces of your swing, but not really start over with an entirely brand new swing if that makes sense?

[billchao]

6 minutes ago, klineka said:

I think what @billchao might mean is that once you start swinging and playing, your swing will have a certain "DNA" or pattern that you will have and it's not really possible to just hit a button and suddenly have a completely different looking swing that sticks and is repeatable.

It's certain possible to change pieces of your swing, but not really start over with an entirely brand new swing if that makes sense?

That’s pretty much what I’m saying, yea.

You can’t “start over” because your brain has already learned how to hit a little white ball with an angled stick. Whether it’s done well is irrelevant.

[SEMI_Duffer]

24 minutes ago, klineka said:

I think what @billchao might mean is that once you start swinging and playing, your swing will have a certain "DNA" or pattern that you will have and it's not really possible to just hit a button and suddenly have a completely different looking swing that sticks and is repeatable.

Just hit a button?  No.  But, I believe that, with sufficient effort, one can replace ingrained moves with new ingrained moves.

24 minutes ago, klineka said:

It's certain possible to change pieces of your swing, but not really start over with an entirely brand new swing if that makes sense?

Well, that's what I'm doing.  Is it difficult?  Yes it is.  And that's with me only having practiced and played for one season.

If I'm successful my new swing will look nothing at all like my old swing.

30 minutes ago, billchao said:

You can’t “start over” because your brain has already learned how to hit a little white ball with an angled stick.

So you retrain it.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

Just hit a button?  No.  But, I believe that, with sufficient effort, one can replace ingrained moves with new ingrained moves.

Well, that's what I'm doing.  Is it difficult?  Yes it is.  And that's with me only having practiced and played for one season.

If I'm successful my new swing will look nothing at all like my old swing.

So you retrain it.

That’s not starting over, that’s simply learning and training yourself to swing a new way. It’s what all of us who take lessons and practice do.

You can’t “start over as a beginner” as the OP suggests, except for switching hands or something as I mentioned.

[pganapathy]

6 hours ago, klineka said:

I think what @billchao might mean is that once you start swinging and playing, your swing will have a certain "DNA" or pattern that you will have and it's not really possible to just hit a button and suddenly have a completely different looking swing that sticks and is repeatable.

It's certain possible to change pieces of your swing, but not really start over with an entirely brand new swing if that makes sense?

Of course it is.  Just that it requires a lot of practice and lessons.  Many pro's have done it, totally rebuilding their swing.  Tiger is the best example.  Of course, his understanding of the golf game and talent is on another level, but still, it can be done by amateurs too.

 

My advice is lessons are key.  You will need to invest time and money in lessons and then practice sessions.  Without these you cannot ingrain new habits and a swing

[SEMI_Duffer]

14 hours ago, billchao said:

That’s not starting over, that’s simply learning and training yourself to swing a new way.

Poh-tate-oh/Poh-taht-oh.  Either way you're training your brain to swing a club a whole new way.

[Vinsk]

Unfortunately there’s no starting over for me. I’ve learned I have no feel for the golf swing. Zero. Feel ain’t real? So true. But unfortunately you have to at some point attribute a feel to something you’re trying to achieve. And you guys have that basic natural ability to recognize a feel that produces a position or movement you want.

For me, I don’t have this. I could do 10,000 slow repetitions of hitting/swinging where my lead arm is straight. Instructor says go to the top, good, come down. Feel that? Excellent. Repeat.

After 10,000-100k times I can then try and swing at normal speed…and feel identical to the past 100k repetitions …only to have the instructor tell me my lead arm bent almost around my neck. 
 

So my lead arm as straight as a board feels exactly the same as bent 50-90*. My changes in a swing are purely random as I have no feel and minimal proprioception.

[SEMI_Duffer]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

For me, I don’t have this. I could do 10,000 slow repetitions of hitting/swinging where my lead arm is straight. Instructor says go to the top, good, come down. Feel that? Excellent. Repeat.

After 10,000-100k times I can then try and swing at normal speed…and feel identical to the past 100k repetitions …only to have the instructor tell me my lead arm bent almost around my neck. 

I've had similar experiences.  It finally occurred to me, recently, that you can't go from slow-motion repetitions to executing the motion at speed and expect the same results.  Then I ran across the video blog post I'll note below and found out I was right.  In order to learn a motion you expect to execute quickly you have to train it quickly.

Why?  Because the feels you get when you execute at speed are different than what you feel in slow motion.

So, what I'm training now, which is how to pivot/turn down to the ball on the down-swing, from the top of the back-swing, goes like this:

1. I do two sets of six reps at slow motion, checking myself at the top of my back-swing and watching my hip-surf/push-back that initiates the transition.  One set each watching down-line and face-on, in mirrors.
2. I next do six reps each, down-line and face-on, still stopping and checking at the top of my back-swing and then watching the initiation of my transition, but, I come down and around at speed.
3. Then I do two sets of twelve reps with no pause at the top of my back-swing, executing the motions with the rhythm I would in practice or on the course, and look in the mirrors only at the end, to see if I'm in the positions I should be at impact.
4. Lastly: I do two sets of two reps, videoing myself both down-line and face-on, to look for flaws I might not catch in the mirrors.

And, when I say I'm training those last six sets "at speed" I mean so fast you can faintly hear the club head *whoosh* as I execute the down-swing motion.  This is with the club held across the front of my shoulders.  (The purpose of this drill is to teach you do come down and around without your arms and the club influencing your motion or perception.)

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

So my lead arm as straight as a board feels exactly the same as bent 50-90*. My changes in a swing are purely random as I have no feel and minimal proprioception.

I have poor proprioception, too.  But, I must have some, or I wouldn't be able to pick up a pen without looking, get a fork full of food in my mouth, drive a car with a manual transmission, or toss a ball to somebody without missing them entirely 

It was realizing I did have some sense of proprioception that led me to understand part of my problem in training new motions wasn't entirely my poor proprioception, but, partly because I tended to train without my mind being in the moment.  IOW: I was often just going through the motions.

Anyway, I recently ran across this video blog post about how to accelerate training new motions.  It's long, and I don't usually have patience with video blog presentations.  Didn't have that problem with this one.  I found it fascinating.  I put some of his recommendations into practice.  They do seem to be working.

How to Learn Skills Faster | Huberman Lab Podcast

Btw: The lead arm bending thing?  Used to have that problem, too. I got rid of that problem when I stopped artificially seeking for depth by bringing my lead arm too far back, but, instead, getting my back to the target and feeling more like my lead arm was "punching" straight back.  My trail arm ends-up in a better position, too.

Sometimes it's what you're training and how you're training, rather than how much you're training.

Edited August 13, 2023 by SEMI_Duffer

[laso2687]

1 hour ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

I've had similar experiences.  It finally occurred to me, recently, that you can't go from slow-motion repetitions to executing the motion at speed and expect the same results.  Then I ran across the video blog post I'll note below and found out I was right.  In order to learn a motion you expect to execute quickly you have to train it quickly.

Why?  Because the feels you get when you execute at speed are different than what you feel in slow motion.

So, what I'm training now, which is how to pivot/turn down to the ball on the down-swing, from the top of the back-swing, goes like this:

1. I do two sets of six reps at slow motion, checking myself at the top of my back-swing and watching my hip-surf/push-back that initiates the transition.  One set each watching down-line and face-on, in mirrors.
2. I next do six reps each, down-line and face-on, still stopping and checking at the top of my back-swing and then watching the initiation of my transition, but, I come down and around at speed.
3. Then I do two sets of twelve reps with no pause at the top of my back-swing, executing the motions with the rhythm I would in practice or on the course, and look in the mirrors only at the end, to see if I'm in the positions I should be at impact.
4. Lastly: I do two sets of two reps, videoing myself both down-line and face-on, to look for flaws I might not catch in the mirrors.

And, when I say I'm training those last six sets "at speed" I mean so fast you can faintly hear the club head *whoosh* as I execute the down-swing motion.  This is with the club held across the front of my shoulders.  (The purpose of this drill is to teach you do come down and around without your arms and the club influencing your motion or perception.)

I have poor proprioception, too.  But, I must have some, or I wouldn't be able to pick up a pen without looking, get a fork full of food in my mouth, drive a car with a manual transmission, or toss a ball to somebody without missing them entirely 

It was realizing I did have some sense of proprioception that led me to understand part of my problem in training new motions wasn't entirely my poor proprioception, but, partly because I tended to train without my mind being in the moment.  IOW: I was often just going through the motions.

Anyway, I recently ran across this video blog post about how to accelerate training new motions.  It's long, and I don't usually have patience with video blog presentations.  Didn't have that problem with this one.  I found it fascinating.  I put some of his recommendations into practice.  They do seem to be working.

How to Learn Skills Faster | Huberman Lab Podcast

Btw: The lead arm bending thing?  Used to have that problem, too. I got rid of that problem when I stopped artificially seeking for depth by bringing my lead arm too far back, but, instead, getting my back to the target and feeling more like my lead arm was "punching" straight back.  My trail arm ends-up in a better position, too.

Sometimes it's what you're training and how you're training, rather than how much you're training.

That’s why I feel lessons are the next step, as I’m “training” too much and not training the right movements.

[iacas]

21 hours ago, pganapathy said:

Of course it is.  Just that it requires a lot of practice and lessons.  Many pro's have done it, totally rebuilding their swing.  Tiger is the best example.  Of course, his understanding of the golf game and talent is on another level, but still, it can be done by amateurs too.

What?

Tiger did not "start over." Not remotely close.

[Vinsk]

18 hours ago, SEMI_Duffer said:

Why?  Because the feels you get when you execute at speed are different than what you feel in slow motion.

But that’s the problem for me, the feels are identical. Straight arm in position, I’m in the mirror or with an observer, verified. Over and over. Then I swing gently or real speed, identical in feel but completely different in execution.

[SEMI_Duffer]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

But that’s the problem for me, the feels are identical. Straight arm in position, I’m in the mirror or with an observer, verified. Over and over. Then I swing gently or real speed, identical in feel but completely different in execution.

You need to wean yourself off the mirror for feedback and learn to focus on the feel, rather than the mirror.

Try this:

1. Get it right while watching yourself in a mirror
2. Look away from the mirror--down to where the ball is or would be (I use a small adhesive dot stuck to the floor for a "ball.")
3. Feel what your position feels like
4. Repeat steps 1-3 several times
5. Looking down at the ball: Try it
6. Check yourself in the mirror
7. If it's not right: Go back to step #1, repeat several more times
8. If it is right: Repeat steps 5 & 6

Once you've been able to do 5 & 6 repeatedly, without going back to Step #1: Speed up until you start failing again.  At that speed go back to Step #1.  Do not slow down, but, keep working at that speed until you're able to do Steps 5 & 6 repeatedly, w/o going back to Step #1.  Speed up some more.  Wash, rinse, repeat.

Here's a drill from the instruction I've been taking.  It requires face-on and down-line mirrors simultaneously:

1. Assume setup position without a club--with your arms hanging straight down.  (They should be a bit past your toes?)
2. Letting your lead am continue to hang straight down: Pivot your back to the target, reaching back and up with your trail arm at the same angle as your shoulders.  (My instructors call this the "reach for the sky" drill.)
3. Stop.  Check your position in the face-on mirror: Centered and balanced.
4. Bring your trail arm up until your fist is about punching into your trailing side pectoral in the down-line mirror image.
5. Look back down at the "ball" and feel what that feels like
6. Then, as with the prior drill: Get the first position, then the second, w/o watching in the mirrors--using the mirrors only to ensure you're getting where you should be.
7. Once you've achieved #6, do the drill bringing your lead arm along as you pivot back--first using the mirrors while you do it, then doing it while looking at the "ball" and using the mirrors only to confirm position after getting there.

I've done both of those drills, literally thousands of times, to get these things right.

I still do that second drill when setting up for a drill I do to teach me not to haul my arms out and down during the down-swing.

[billchao]

On 8/13/2023 at 10:08 AM, SEMI_Duffer said:

Poh-tate-oh/Poh-taht-oh.  Either way you're training your brain to swing a club a whole new way.

It’s really not. You’re changing an aspect of your swing while retaining others. It’s not completely new and it’s definitely not “starting over” because you can’t just magically unlearn bad habits. If you could, then changing your swing would be easy.

22 hours ago, Vinsk said:

My changes in a swing are purely random as I have no feel and minimal proprioception.

I seriously doubt this given your athletic background.

If I had to guess, you’ve seen instructors who want to fix your lead arm bending by straightening it instead of addressing why it bends so much in the first place.