Jack vs. Tiger: Who's the Greatest Golfer?

[waldo]

Nicklaus had polio at the age of 13 which presented post polio syndrome symptoms throughout his career. He also had degenerative arthritis that created a need for hip replacement. While this peaked in his 50s it's a disease that starts much earlier in life. As far as flying around in his jet, that came later in his career. He has often spoke of he and his wife dragging the kids along from event to event in their station wagon while staying in cheaper motels. This is not intended to express who is better but to simply clarify some misgivings pertaining to jacks health and style of transportation.

[turtleback]

Nicklaus had polio at the age of 13 which presented post polio syndrome symptoms throughout his career. He also had degenerative arthritis that created a need for hip replacement. While this peaked in his 50s it's a disease that starts much earlier in life.

As far as flying around in his jet, that came later in his career. He has often spoke of he and his wife dragging the kids along from event to event in their station wagon while staying in cheaper motels.

This is not intended to express who is better but to simply clarify some misgivings pertaining to jacks health and style of transportation.

Maybe for the first year or two.  But not for the bulk of his career.  He was the second (after Arnold) to get his own plane.  In July of 1964.

http://books.google.com/books?id=pk_XbANidNkC&lpg;=PA129&ots;=5DSeZnKowh&dq;=nicklaus%20airplane&pg;=PA128#v=onepage&q;=nicklaus%20airplane&f;=false

Chapter 6, paragraph 3.

As to his post-polio syndrome issues it would be unusual for them to have had much of an effect on his playing career since the syndrome generally occurs 30-40 years after the initial episode, which would put them starting in Jack's 40s. And severity tends to mirror initial severity, and his case has been described as mild.  So I still have a hard time putting this in the category of the other guys I mentioned.

[jamo]

Maybe for the first year or two.  But not for the bulk of his career.  He was the second (after Arnold) to get his own plane.  In July of 1964. [URL=http://books.google.com/books?id=pk_XbANidNkC&lpg;=PA129&ots;=5DSeZnKowh&dq;=nicklaus%20airplane&pg;=PA128#v=onepage&q;=nicklaus%20airplane&f;=false]http://books.google.com/books?id=pk_XbANidNkC&lpg;=PA129&ots;=5DSeZnKowh&dq;=nicklaus%20airplane&pg;=PA128#v=onepage&q;=nicklaus%20airplane&f;=false[/URL] Chapter 6, paragraph 3.

He also played a weekly field of guys who either at a similar level of transportation or slightly lower, as has Tiger. So I'm not sure that argument would hold weight anyway.

[turtleback]

On 10/2/2014 at 10:52 AM, Golfingdad said:

P.P.S.  I am genuinely curious about the "previous criteria" that Jack failed to achieve though.

Since you ask, I am going to post something i did not write, but which was written by a guy whose screen-name was jugglepin back in the days when the Golf Channel message boards were usable.  There are remnants of link in this but the way I copied it, way back then, did not preserve the links:

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/844648-the-evolution-of-goats/

---

One of the side issues that has recently come up in several different threads was Jack himself lobbying to make majors the standard for GOAT (Greatest of All Time).

Jack fans, who like to accuse Tiger fans of knowing nothing about golf history, seem strangely unaware that before Jack broke the record, the pro with the most major wins was Walter Hagen, who had 11 titles now recognized as majors, plus five Western Opens, which was considered a major before the Masters was founded, and certainly had much tougher fields than the amateur majors that padded Jones's total. 16 majors, from a guy who won the US Open before the PGA or Masters were even founded, and who had to travel by ship to play the British Open (which was cancelled for WWI for five years during Hagen's prime), but nobody ever said Hagen was the GOAT.  But somehow, by the late 70's, most of the public and media accepted that "most majors" was the best way to compare players.

I'm a Tiger fan now, but I've been attending PGA events since the 60's, and Jack was my favorite player for over 30 years. I very clearly remember him lobbying for the majors standard in TV interviews. I've collected references I've found over the years, and I thought I'd post some samples to show a timeline of the evolution of Jack's statements on the subject.  Hopefully some of my pals here can use it for future reference.  I'm starting a new thread so it will be easy to find, and I think it has enough meat to be a subject in itself.
I've indulged myself by guessing Jack's motives for each change of direction.  I acknowledge that it is sheer speculation.  Anything inside quotes is something Jack said; anything outside of quotes is my own paraphrase or imagination, and you're welcome to differ with my opinion of his motives.  But I think the quotes pretty much speak for themselves.

1959 --- As an amateur, Jack says that Bobby Jones is the greatest player ever.  But he says it in the context of the Grand Slam, not his total major wins.  Note that in Jack's 1996 autobiography, he said that he never seriously contemplated turning pro until mid-1961, so he felt he had a long time to try to match the feat of Jones:
"That's my goal. Bobby Jones. It's the only goal."
Unfortunately, the original is no longer linkable since Time put up a pay wall.

1963 --- Now he's a pro, so it's no longer possible to duplicate the Slam of Bobby Jones. Jack nimbly comes up with a new standard for GOAT. He says the guy who wins the most tournaments (not majors) is the greatest golfer of all time: "My aim is to win more golf tournaments than anybody who ever lived. I want to be the greatest." Arnie had averaged over seven wins a year for the previous three years, and Jack had beaten Arnie at the previous US Open, so Jack probably figured he could break Snead's record in no more than 12 years.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=l-8qAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1IgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3429%2C1549725

1965 --- In spite of one of the fastest starts ever, Jack is only averaging four wins per year, which means it might take over 20 years to catch Snead, even if Jack can keep up his youthful pace (he was playing 26 events a year then).  Jack reconsiders his chances, and switches goals again. He now considers Hogan as the greatest ever.  He says to beat him, he might have to win the (pro) Grand Slam, which only takes one good year.  Note that Hogan had fewer majors than Hagen, whom Jack never mentioned as a standard.  Note also that Jack is here saying it's possible to be the GOAT with just four majors, if they're consecutive:
"Right now I think you would have to say that Hogan was the best ever. That is the goal, but I don't know how you get there. Maybe I could win the Grand Slam, but what would I do after that if I was still young?"
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1076860/index.htm

Bonus from 1965:  How many times have you read a post claiming that golfers today lack the killer instinct because of the money they can make by just getting top tens?  And how the golfers in Jack's day had to win, or their kids would go hungry?  Here's an article from 1965 saying that American golfers are too soft, because all their endorsement money makes them not care about winning:
' Palmer summed it up well recently when he was quoted as follows: "I don't think it's a good idea for our young players to compete without any real financial incentive, which is what happens when you have a sponsor. These kids don't know what it is like to have to win in order to survive. They know they don't need to win to make a lot of money—more money than they ever dreamed of."'
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1077470/index.htm

1970 --- This was the watershed year, when Jack switched his goal to most majors, consecutive or not. I haven't found a contemporary account of Jack's exchange with Bob Green, the AP reporter who told Jack that he was only three majors short of Bobby Jones's total after Jack won the 1970 Open at St. Andrews, but here is Jack's recollection of it:
"It's like my majors, I never counted my majors until Bob Green (of The Associated Press) told me at St. Andrews in the '70s. He says, 'Hey, Jack, that's ten, only three more to tie Bobby Jones.' I said, 'Really?' Honest, I swear, I never counted them."
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/04/10/jack-nicklaus-reflects-on-50-years-of-masters-and-tiger-woods-chance-to-eclipse-him/

1970 -- Jack quickly latches on to the idea of winning four more majors to beat Jones, rather than 50 more PGA events to beat Snead, or the seemingly impossible Grand Slam.  One week after his Open win, Jack says his chief goal has always been the Grand Slam, but now adds that his other goal is winning 14 majors to beat Bobby Jones. Note that at this time, it is just his personal goal, and not a suggested standard.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=D4VGAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VS8NAAAAIBAJ&pg=3260%2C2089101

1971 -- Jack says his goal in golf is 14 majors to beat Jones's record, but now hints that if he does it, it would make him the GOAT:
"The accomplishment that would separate me from other golfers is to win more major championships than [Jones] did."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=MjojAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OrcFAAAAIBAJ&pg=766%2C5396241

1973 --- Jack wins his 14th major, breaking Jones's record.  He now argues that majors are the only way to judge players of different eras.  Note that he sort of acknowledges that it's not fair to Jones, who CHOSE to stop playing majors, but he doesn't mention Hogan, Hagen, Snead, and everybody else who came before him, who COULDN'T play four majors a year, or had several majors cancelled for world wars:
"You can't compare stroke average because of the difference in course and people and equipment.  You certainly can't compare money winnings.  That's not valid.  The only yardstick is the major championships.  And even those aren't the same.  The comparison is very difficult to make.  Remember, Jones retired at 28. If he'd stayed active, there's no telling how many he would have won."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8upRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9XIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5064%2C4016575

1973 --- Dan Jenkins, chief golf writer for SI and Jack's head cheerleader, lends his full support.  He says with his 14th major, Jack "officially became the greatest golfer who ever lived or died," and compares an offhand remark Jack made to the Gettysburg Address. You think Tiger has sycophants in the media...
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1087686/index.htm

1975 --- Now in full lobbying mode, Jack argues that majors are the ONLY FAIR WAY to judge players.  Not a hint about Jones retiring early, let alone Hagen hitting his prime before the PGA or Masters were founded:
"Money changes.  You can't use that to compare.  The only fair, adequate way to compare a player of one era against a player of another is his record in the major championships."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=XlVNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=BvsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7076%2C4326235

1979 --- Mission accomplished. The public has thrown Vardon, Jones, Hagen, Hogan, Nelson, and Snead under the bus, and bought into the idea that majors are the only fair comparison.  Jack says his goal now is to extend his majors record as high as possible, to make it harder for a future player to catch him. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=z0xSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=RHwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6823%2C6632381

---

And there you have it,  The modern day equivalent would be as if Tiger lobbied for GOAT to be the guy who has the most combined majors, WGCs, and Players.  If Tiger did that heads would explode in outrage, yet Jack does the equivalent and the whole golf world just went along.

[Golfingdad]

Since you ask, I am going to post something i did not write, but which was written by a guy whose screen-name was jugglepin back in the days when the Golf Channel message boards were usable.  There are remnants of link in this but the way I copied it, way back then, did not preserve the links,:

And there you have it,  The modern day equivalent would be as if Tiger lobbied for GOAT to be the guy who has the most combined majors, WGCs, and Players.  If Tiger did that heads would explode in outrage, yet Jack does the equivalent and the whole golf world just went along.

Thanks, that was very interesting.  I even like the "bonus 1965" part where the guy mentions how the players got soft due to all of the sponsorships and money.  Ha!

[9iron]

Just like every "What if Tiger...?" thread, this one is simply regurgitating Jack vs. Tiger; 18(20) vs. 14(17).

Jack's achievements in majors is far superior to Tiger's.

First Place

Jack 18     Tiger 14

2nd Place

Jack 19     Tiger 6

Top 5

Jack 56     Tiger 31 (Jack has almost twice as many top 5's)

Top 10

Jack 73     Tiger 38 (Jack has almost twice as many top 10's too, Sam Snead had 48 top 10's despite not playing in about 25% of the events during his prime)

[iacas]

Jack's achievements in majors is far superior to Tiger's.

Only if you count the numbers themselves without context.

I disagree with you. I voted for 17 > 20, and if pushed, I think I'd put 14 > 18.

And… relevant to this thread, Tiger's current PGA Tour win total is vastly better than Snead's, even if the number itself is smaller.

[9iron]

We can agree to disagree. And I don't think it is even close, but that is what makes the world go round.

[k-troop]

Just like every "What if Tiger...?" thread, this one is simply regurgitating Jack vs. Tiger; 18(20) vs. 14(17).

Jack's achievements in majors is far superior to Tiger's.

First Place

Jack 18     Tiger 14

2nd Place

Jack 19     Tiger 6

Top 5

Jack 56     Tiger 31 (Jack has almost twice as many top 5's)

Top 10

Jack 73     Tiger 38 (Jack has almost twice as many top 10's too, Sam Snead had 48 top 10's despite not playing in about 25% of the events during his prime)

We can agree to disagree. And I don't think it is even close, but that is what makes the world go round.

Disagree all you want.  But you may want to do it in the threads that are specifically dedicated to

--whether Jack is better than Tiger: http://thesandtrap.com/t/2203/jack-or-tiger-whos-the-greatest

--or whether 14(17) is better than 18(20): http://thesandtrap.com/t/74049/strength-and-depth-of-field-in-jacks-day-and-tigers-day

[9iron]

Disagree all you want.  But you may want to do it in the threads that are specifically dedicated to

--whether Jack is better than Tiger: http://thesandtrap.com/t/2203/jack-or-tiger-whos-the-greatest

--or whether 14(17) is better than 18(20): http://thesandtrap.com/t/74049/strength-and-depth-of-field-in-jacks-day-and-tigers-day

I avoid those threads are they are nothing more than shouting matches. I'd have not even brought it up here, but as you so expertly pointed out, this thread, like so many others, had devolved into the same old - same old. They threw out the bait so ......

[Kayjay17]

I believe the most widely known record in golf is that Jack won 18 majors.

Unbelievably, and in this context I think an even more incredible record is that he finished second 19 times!  Remembering that the list of pros over the years who have even qualified to play in 19 majors is not a long one, the fact that he won 18 and has held that record for nearly 30 years with only one guy (Tiger) remotely near him speaks volumes about just how good Jack was. Think about it, with another putt there or there, a better weather draw here or there, a better bounce or lie here or there and we could be talking about Jack having won 33 majors, or 35 majors.

Why there is not more acclaim for the second places in majors is a mystery to me given the number of victories he actually had.

Remember too that Jack was playing when Arnold was still winning, Gary Player was still winning majors etc. He also was hitting 300 yard drives with persimmon woods and steel shafts and balata balls.

Tiger is easily the best golfer of the past 20 years but if we are talking about the best golfer ever, Jack is in a league of his own. I am lucky enough to have seen them both through their prime and each were dominating.

[boogielicious]

I believe the most widely known record in golf is that Jack won 18 majors.

Unbelievably, and in this context I think an even more incredible record is that he finished second 19 times!  Remembering that the list of pros over the years who have even qualified to play in 19 majors is not a long one, the fact that he won 18 and has held that record for nearly 30 years with only one guy (Tiger) remotely near him speaks volumes about just how good Jack was. Think about it, with another putt there or there, a better weather draw here or there, a better bounce or lie here or there and we could be talking about Jack having won 33 majors, or 35 majors.

Why there is not more acclaim for the second places in majors is a mystery to me given the number of victories he actually had.

Remember too that Jack was playing when Arnold was still winning, Gary Player was still winning majors etc. He also was hitting 300 yard drives with persimmon woods and steel shafts and balata balls.

Tiger is easily the best golfer of the past 20 years but if we are talking about the best golfer ever, Jack is in a league of his own. I am lucky enough to have seen them both through their prime and each were dominating.

Please read the previous 4690 posts where the exact things you stated were debated 2300 times.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kayjay17

I believe the most widely known record in golf is that Jack won 18 majors.

Unbelievably, and in this context I think an even more incredible record is that he finished second 19 times!  Remembering that the list of pros over the years who have even qualified to play in 19 majors is not a long one, the fact that he won 18 and has held that record for nearly 30 years with only one guy (Tiger) remotely near him speaks volumes about just how good Jack was. Think about it, with another putt there or there, a better weather draw here or there, a better bounce or lie here or there and we could be talking about Jack having won 33 majors, or 35 majors.

Why there is not more acclaim for the second places in majors is a mystery to me given the number of victories he actually had.

Remember too that Jack was playing when Arnold was still winning, Gary Player was still winning majors etc. He also was hitting 300 yard drives with persimmon woods and steel shafts and balata balls.

Tiger is easily the best golfer of the past 20 years but if we are talking about the best golfer ever, Jack is in a league of his own. I am lucky enough to have seen them both through their prime and each were dominating.

Please read the previous 4690 posts where the exact things you stated were debated 2300 times.

Come on Boogie, give a new member a break here.  It's crap like this that runs off new folks before they can even find a seat.

If I had just joined here I sure as hell wouldn't read 260 pages before I put in my opinion - Would you???

[Ferguson]

I believe the most widely known record in golf is that Jack won 18 majors. Unbelievably, and in this context I think an even more incredible record is that he finished second 19 times!  Remembering that the list of pros over the years who have even qualified to play in 19 majors is not a long one, the fact that he won 18 and has held that record for nearly 30 years with only one guy (Tiger) remotely near him speaks volumes about just how good Jack was. Think about it, with another putt there or there, a better weather draw here or there, a better bounce or lie here or there and we could be talking about Jack having won 33 majors, or 35 majors. Why there is not more acclaim for the second places in majors is a mystery to me given the number of victories he actually had. Remember too that Jack was playing when Arnold was still winning, Gary Player was still winning majors etc. He also was hitting 300 yard drives with persimmon woods and steel shafts and balata balls. Tiger is easily the best golfer of the past 20 years but if we are talking about the best golfer ever, Jack is in a league of his own. I am lucky enough to have seen them both through their prime and each were dominating.

Hello, I read your post. I'm with you 100%. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the topic. I think Jack tops my list too. Tiger is right up there too with Arnie and Phil.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kayjay17

I believe the most widely known record in golf is that Jack won 18 majors.

Unbelievably, and in this context I think an even more incredible record is that he finished second 19 times!  Remembering that the list of pros over the years who have even qualified to play in 19 majors is not a long one, the fact that he won 18 and has held that record for nearly 30 years with only one guy (Tiger) remotely near him speaks volumes about just how good Jack was. Think about it, with another putt there or there, a better weather draw here or there, a better bounce or lie here or there and we could be talking about Jack having won 33 majors, or 35 majors.

Why there is not more acclaim for the second places in majors is a mystery to me given the number of victories he actually had.

Remember too that Jack was playing when Arnold was still winning, Gary Player was still winning majors etc. He also was hitting 300 yard drives with persimmon woods and steel shafts and balata balls.

Tiger is easily the best golfer of the past 20 years but if we are talking about the best golfer ever, Jack is in a league of his own. I am lucky enough to have seen them both through their prime and each were dominating.

Please read the previous 4690 posts where the exact things you stated were debated 2300 times.

Come on Boogie, give a new member a break here.  It's crap like this that runs off new folks before they can even find a seat.

If I had just joined here I sure as hell wouldn't read 260 pages before I put in my opinion - Would you???

I wouldn't respond in a thread with 4690 posts without at least reading a few of them Rick.  Especially when no one has posted for two months.

[disco111]

This is a debate that can go on for ever, but there's two major things that folks should bring into mind. #1 You can only compare the two, when they have achieved an equal status in the majors. Now for #2---- The old adage of "walk a mile in someone's shoes" can come into play here. That being, go play a round or 2 with a balata ball, a persimmon head driver and shorter and weaker forged irons.

[Jakester23]

This is a debate that can go on for ever, but there's two major things that folks should bring into mind. #1 You can only compare the two, when they have achieved an equal status in the majors. Now for #2---- The old adage of "walk a mile in someone's shoes" can come into play here. That being, go play a round or 2 with a balata ball, a persimmon head driver and shorter and weaker forged irons.

You forgot to add with a much much much weaker field. Also no media scrutiny on your every move.

[iacas]

You forgot to add with a much much much weaker field. Also no media scrutiny on your every move.

And the fact that better equipment narrows the gap, not widens it. It's a weak, simple argument we've heard - and responded to - countless times already, @disco111 .