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38 minutes ago, billchao said:

The model is an actual swing while the instructor is demonstrating an exaggerated drill. In a swing the dynamics change a bit and you're not going to get the same "look" as the drill.

This makes sense. I think the guys should probably be more clear and state what you did. Many people watching that will notice the large movement of the head and think they’re full of it. Thanks @billchao

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18 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

This makes sense. I think the guys should probably be more clear and state what you did. Many people watching that will notice the large movement of the head and think they’re full of it. Thanks @billchao

I think there's always a tradeoff in videos where you want to be clear and concise in a specific message without including too much information and this may have been one of those. They're focused on the slide/bump movement and not trying to get too much else going on which is covered in other videos.

BTW you can totally slide forward like that if you're trying to hit a low running punch shot.

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17 hours ago, mvmac said:

@iacas and Dave for years have used a similar image of the torso/hips transferring "downhill". Surfing or snowboarding downhill.

Yeah, it encourages good hip slants at A4, and maintaining them long enough (until ~A6 when the left hip will start to get above the right), and while I generally agree with the video, I don't love it. Making videos is hard, but they could have done a little bit better without asking the impossible.

This very topic is proof that I've told people to slide or bump or move their hips forward while keeping their URC pretty stable. That's because we see a lot of stuff like this (on the left):

04.jpg

Meanwhile we see PGA Tour players doing like Justin Rose on the right above - the hips have slid forward (and turned - don't underestimate how turning can move the "zipper" forward). And as I said in the first post, we see them doing stuff like this:

On 9/26/2009 at 7:21 PM, iacas said:

tiger_hogan_hip_slide.jpg

tiger_hip_slide.jpg

faldo_hip_slide.jpg

baddeley_hip_slide.jpgscott_hip_slide.jpgfaxon_hip_slide.jpghowell_hip_slide.jpgmontgomerie_hip_slide.jpgduval_hip_slide.jpgels_hip_slide.jpgkuehne_hip_slide.jpgperry_hip_slide.jpg

But you'll notice in Justin Rose's video that his head has gone forward a little bit, and it's not like he has 30° of axis tilt here. Ditto for a lot of the other players.

So:

  • I disagree that a hip slide or bump is "bad" as implied by the video @mvmac posted. There are some semantics at play here, but good players move their hips forward.
  • Good players also tend to let their torsos move forward a bit, too. There are also again some semantics at play here, and some measurement terms:
    • Semantics - the "torso" is everything above the hips and below the neck, so I think defining the "torso" is important. I talk mostly about the head and URC. Of course if the hips go forward, the lower torso is going to go forward quite a bit.
    • Measuring Point - if you measure the torso by measuring the rib cage… let's say even the left rib cage, just rotating it will track as moving forward. GEARS is more complex than that, so I'm not saying that's what's going on, but if they are measuring the "torso" by the lower ribs, again, that's closer to the hips than the URC, so it would also track as "more forward" than I might call it.
  • I have always said that I would rather a player "go forward" and to "get the ball" than to have to tip back and try to save it.

Look, you can truly measure things like this on GEARS (so long as you understand where the sensors and things are, and how that translates to their 3D model and more importantly to their measurements)… and you can quasi-measure things by looking at video, and seeing how far forward things have moved.

IMO:

  • The hips move forward "a good bit." They don't shoot up in the air like they demonstrate in the video.
  • The URC can move forward "a little bit." If it moves back and creates more axis tilt in the backswing, it can move forward more than it does in someone who doesn't create much axis tilt in the backswing.
  • The vast majority of the golfers I teach don't do either of those things, and a good chunk of them move the URC more or at least the same amount forward as the LRC. Thus, this topic is still very relevant to them.

@mvmac, you know I'm almost happier to be shown to be wrong if it's true, so what's your take on what I've said here and what you know about how I teach? (Though the latter is less relevant, because people reading this topic are NOT seeing me teach, and can only go by what they read and see here.)

2 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I agree the excessive ‘bump’ is not the goal as represented by the guy. But I think his actual demonstration is incorrect. If we can accept his head as ‘steady’ it could cause some confusion. I don’t know how to mark the video but it clearly shows his head moving forward about 8” or more and staying there whereas the model’s head definitely fits the notion of ‘steady’ head. I don’t see many cases of tour swings that I’ve watched move their head near as much as he does in this video. I’m mainly asking because my Evolvr instructor is even telling me to ‘keep my head back’ as my weight shifts laterally. The computer model does this but the guy certainly does not. 

Not the best markup but I think it shows what I’m saying. Look at the treetop in the background. Isn’t his head movement excessively forward?

It's a demonstration, so he exaggerates. He's not trying to get it "exactly right." Though, I do think he could have done a better job. I mean, this is a lot…

01.jpg

The GEARS guy doesn't move much:

03.jpg02.jpg

You can see his ear moves forward, and then his head tips back just a little. Which, if you consider that the head is above the URC… makes some sense.

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A not-entirely-random sampling, but these weren't chosen because of what I thought I'd see… rather they're just the first eight I found starting near the top of my library (some are in the "Miscellaneous" folder and don't have their own):

01.jpg02.jpg03.jpg04.jpg05.jpg06.jpg07.jpg08.jpg

Lines were drawn on the side of their heads and just outside the left hip at A4, and then I've shown A5 and A6.

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5 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Isn’t his head movement excessively forward?

Yes it is. Like others have said he's demonstrating/exaggerating for effect, like he did with the head back/hip slide downswing. Also he's on the pressure board so that might cause him to translate a little more forward. Can be tough to demonstrate it 100% correctly when you aren't doing it dynamically. Reason I would guess they use the GEARS player as a model.

2 hours ago, iacas said:

@mvmac, you know I'm almost happier to be shown to be wrong if it's true, so what's your take on what I've said here and what you know about how I teach? (Though the latter is less relevant, because people reading this topic are NOT seeing me teach, and can only go by what they read and see here.)

Yep all sounds good to me. 

Just thought I'd post it because it was an image you guys shared with me several years ago and something you see players like Rose do in his practice swing. Also promotes the cue of going forward on the downswing when we see a trend of some instructors wanting to eliminate any slide.

For me personally, getting to a place where I could be more "on top of it" in the downswing really helped my ball striking. Years ago I had a similar experience to what Shaun was talking about and my left hip would be sore every time I practiced.

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I posted a while ago but haven't been online, the kicking of the right knee in towards left heel makes alot of sense and I look forward to trying it out when I can get back to the range!

It seems the faster i swing the more my knee / right hip moves towards the target line instead of towards my left foot - causing heel shots, especially with my driver, causing a weak high slice shape.

It's even happened before when I've tried to really rip my driver and barely clipped it with the inside of the head and the ball has gone just a few yards to my left and behind me!

I'm hoping this right knee kick in feel will help and will try provide feedback

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I incorporated this into my swing over the season but now I've tried to add a different part to it. Instead of just sliding forward I want to slide forward and turn. That's because I was on a trackman recently and my driver numbers are path -0,8 and face 10. So I'm not getting the club to a straight position because I only slide forward and have basically no hip rotation at impact. 

 

We'll see where I end up, I will be taking lessons over the winter. 

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7 hours ago, Killa said:

I incorporated this into my swing over the season but now I've tried to add a different part to it. Instead of just sliding forward I want to slide forward and turn. That's because I was on a trackman recently and my driver numbers are path -0,8 and face 10. So I'm not getting the club to a straight position because I only slide forward and have basically no hip rotation at impact. 

 

We'll see where I end up, I will be taking lessons over the winter. 

Yea, this thread mostly assumes people are aware they need to open the hips, but it can happen that we get too bogged down with the slide component and we end up not rotating enough. It's less common than people not sliding enough, but it happens.

There's a third component to this as well: pelvic extension, which kicks in after the slide and rotary components have initiated the sequence. 

The hips slide and rotate and continue to do so through the downswing, but I think right around A5 (lead arm parallel to the ground) the pelvis begins to extend, and this helps the golfer to continue to slide and rotate. 

The two ends of the spectrum here of pelvic extension and flexion:

extension.PNG

This is all theory though. Not necessarily something you need to worry about. 

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10 hours ago, Killa said:

I incorporated this into my swing over the season but now I've tried to add a different part to it. Instead of just sliding forward I want to slide forward and turn. That's because I was on a trackman recently and my driver numbers are path -0,8 and face 10. So I'm not getting the club to a straight position because I only slide forward and have basically no hip rotation at impact. 

You can slide even further forward but have the face closed 10°, too. I think it's vastly overstated that sliding forward a bit leaves the face open.

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

You can slide even further forward but have the face closed 10°, too. I think it's vastly overstated that sliding forward a bit leaves the face open.

 

I will still be sliding forward but need to turn more to square up. 

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9 minutes ago, Killa said:

I will still be sliding forward but need to turn more to square up. 

Maybe, but you can square the club face up independently of whatever your hips are doing, too.

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On 12/13/2018 at 7:08 PM, iacas said:

Maybe, but you can square the club face up independently of whatever your hips are doing, too.

True. My face to path is the result of shallowing the club but I hope to keep the shallow downswing if I can use my hips to correct the face. 

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3 hours ago, Killa said:

I hope to keep the shallow downswing if I can use my hips to correct the face. 

 Not sure I’m understanding this completely. The club isn’t connected to your hips. Are you saying you want to allow enough room by clearing your hips so that you can maintain the path you want? As @iacas said you can square the face independently of your hips.

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who was it that used to say something about "dragging" your trail foot while sliding?  Greg Norman comes to mind, but I could be mistaken. 

 

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8 hours ago, Vinsk said:

 Not sure I’m understanding this completely. The club isn’t connected to your hips. Are you saying you want to allow enough room by clearing your hips so that you can maintain the path you want? As @iacas said you can square the face independently of your hips.

The pro who watched the trackman data and video with me looked at my right elbow on the backswing and the downswing. I’m pushing my right elbow in front of my ribs and it’s connected to my torso on the downswing. At impact I’m pretty much square with my shoulders and my hips and a hip turn would lead to the clubface closing or at least straightening.

 

I always thought that my slice was path related but my path with my driver is between 0- -1°. So I’m getting lessons over the winter and the pro said we’ll get out of the slice fast. We’ll probably be changing a bit of my setup first. 

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If the weather ever warms up (March 5th in Wisconsin), I'm very curious to try the "Hip Slide" to start my downswing. After seeing several posts here explaining that "casting" can be the result of not sliding the hips, it helps to explain a recurring problem with my swing path.

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