The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[akgolfnut]

Can I get the "left shoulder down" (on the takeaway) concept explained? I understand you shouldn't move off the ball, which creates a level shoulder turn. So is "shoulder down" term used to show the opposite of this, or do you actually move your shoulder down on the take away. Wouldn't my head dip?

[iacas]

Can I get the "left shoulder down" (on the takeaway) concept explained? I understand you shouldn't move off the ball, which creates a level shoulder turn. So is "shoulder down" term used to show the opposite of this, or do you actually move your shoulder down on the take away. Wouldn't my head dip?

Your shoulders will not turn level if you don't move off the ball. I used this picture in another thread, but it will illustrate the point pretty well. Ignore the bit about the posture - the key numbers are the degrees difference, with the middle image showing this the best - notice how the shoulders have rotated in a circle about the spine with the least difference here - and how low the left shoulder is in the middle image.

Put simply, your spine is at an angle. To rotate your shoulders around your spine, your left shoulder will go down and your right shoulder will go up. Here's another one.

[akgolfnut]

Eric, thanks, thats awesome. So your head does dip slightly. I was at the range yesterday and struggling. But when I focus on the shoulder down and deep hands, almost exaggerating the feeling, I make great contact. It just feels so strange because I am used to moving off the ball and bring the club up more.

[iacas]

So your head does dip slightly.

No. Not really. Charlie's might move an inch but even that's something he works on.

[michaeljames92]

I really wish there were stack and tilt teachers in Perth. I find that I hit the ball much more sweeter with trying to keep my weight more centred and forward, especially with irons. However I am finding that I for what ever reason am struggling to draw the ball. I am just hitting mostly pushes and small push fades and the occasional draw every now and then. I will post some videos of my swing later on(maybe friday), to see if anyone is able to give any tips. I feel as if I am really pushing my weight forward on the downswing and am told by the club pro that I have too much lateral movement with my hips. But still I cannot draw the ball.

[iacas]

mj92, you should check your hand path. If your hands don't get to where they need to be, you're going to have a hard time drawing the ball. Next on the list would be handle position.

[michaeljames92]

mj92, you should check your hand path. If your hands don't get to where they need to be, you're going to have a hard time drawing the ball. Next on the list would be handle position.

Thanks Erik. I really appreciate the advice. I was thinking hand path, and have tried having the handle forward at address. I will video my swing face on/DTL and see if anyone can make suggestions.

[BallStriker]

Question for Eric/Dave or other S&T guys --- is the S&T method best played with a certain grip? Given that you teach that the ball position should be middle of stance or forward (i.e., nothing back of center), I wouls assume that you would also teach (encourage) a neutral (or possibly even slightly weak) grip -- is that true?

From my perspective, I feel that stronger grips call for ball placements back of center on at least some clubs -- of course, I say this with the caveat that this is only my opinion based on my swing, and it very well may be the case that I am not sliding forward enough to make a middle/front ball position work with my strong grip. Hoping you can give some general thoughts on grip and the S&T -- thanks so much.

[Zeph]

As far as I've read, no. And having the ball not back of center is pretty much what everyone teach. The individual part is usually if you play everything from inside the left foot, or progress from center to inside the left foot from short to long clubs. I have not understood that ball position is a vital part that S&T encourage.

Same goes for grip. If you read the book or watch the DVDs, they say that every player got a different grip, so did all the good players through the history. You have to find one that works for you. Like with every golf teachings, the general idea is that the club is not placed in the palms. They say however that the grip is not a fundamental that needs, or positively should be, in a certain way.

The grip control the angle of the clubface, and perhaps have some impact on the handle position as well. Ball position can depend on handle position I suppose, but I don't think a certain grip calls for the ball farther back in the stance. If you like your grip, keep it and work on different ball positions, but if you get the proper amount of hip slide, back of center should not be needed.

I'd recommend you post a video also, as it helps tremendously on giving guidance. I'm not educated in S&T, so my thoughts are purely from what I've gathered online from Erik, Dave, Mike, Andy and the others.

[Stretch]

The S&T book recommends a fairly neutral grip, but they don't make a big thing of it. Their stated position is that grip, posture and alignment are not fundamental to the golf swing -- since the very best golfers in the world often do all of these quite differently. S&T proposes that the true fundamentals are control of the low point of the swing, control of the curve of the ball and hitting with power.

[iacas]

Question for Eric/Dave or other S&T guys --- is the S&T method best played with a certain grip?

Fairly neutral. But a lot of it is within ranges. As the book says, good golfers have played with incredibly weak or incredibly strong grips. We only change the grips of players when the grip itself is causing a problem. For example, a grip that's too strong will often lead to someone taking the hands out and the club slinging behind them during the takeaway because the hinge pin is on the right side of the grip and not the top of the grip.

If anything, a slightly weaker grip is preferred, but that's only because a straight push with the face a bit too open is going to be "inside the shot cone" while a ball that starts at the target or - heaven forbid left of it - would VERY quickly leave the shot cone.

From my perspective, I feel that stronger grips call for ball placements back of center on at least some clubs -- of course, I say this with the caveat that this is only my opinion based on my swing, and it very well may be the case that I am not sliding forward enough to make a middle/front ball position work with my strong grip. Hoping you can give some general thoughts on grip and the S&T -- thanks so much.

That's likely the case. People who play the ball back have less time to naturally square the clubface (square to where they want, I mean - don't take that as square to the target), so they tend to adopt a stronger grip. People who play the ball back ALSO tend to not get forward enough because, if they did, they might literally swing over top of the golf ball.

I'd look at your ball position with a slightly weaker grip (if indeed it is "strong"), but the bigger key would be to look at ball position first because while you can play good golf with a strong grip, you really can't play good golf hanging back.

I have not understood that ball position is a vital part that S&T encourage.

It is and it isn't. It has to be forward of center (or center at the most back) for virtually everything, but how far forward of center varies by player and club.

[motteler621]

well i know I posted about taking lessons and that he taught me the traditional swing with the weight shifting back and then forward. Well I played a round today with it and it wasnt very productive for me. I then switched back to hitting with most of my weight on my front foot like before/ more stacked over the ball on the top of the swing and I was hitting alot better. I think I will just keep my swing the way it is with most of my weight forward and just tweak it here and there

[iacas]

I think I will just keep my swing the way it is with most of my weight forward and just tweak it here and there

Since you're not opposed to lessons, I might recommend

evolvr . We're seeing good work from the students (over 30 now) and the rate is incredibly low for what you end up getting. That goes for anyone, particularly anyone posting in this thread. But this will (I'll try) be the last time I'll mention it here.

[Joeyvee]

A) I'm glad you re-mentioned it. So don't be shy re-mentioning it in the future. I forgot about it. Finally got the book and have been dreaming about the range. Damn, it sucks getting old. hahaha.
2) I haven't finished the book so forgive me if it's in there but wedge shots? I am VERY handsy with my short wedge shots and thats the way I like it and I'm effective like that (chipping, sand, short pitches) but on longer or full wedge shots how does S&T work? I like the ball way back for those (about dead center, I think of peeing on the ball without having to aim. lol. sorry)

[boogielicious]

Joeyvee,

S&T works great for longer wedge shots. They are my best clubs and I find it very easy to keep the S&T form with wedges. Most of the other teaching I've read on wedge shots all refer to weight left, same as S&T.; I keep the ball just ahead of center for most 9-LW shots and move it back to center or just back of center if I want it to go lower and have more spin.

[melchior]

Not really a question; but something I wanted to share none-the-less.

This really is only my 2nd year hitting the links; last year was horrendous. 70 on 9 holes was not unheard of for me. Earlier this summer I was averaging around 55 for a par 36 9 holes or so.

After getting the SnT book about a month ago (just under, right around the 4th of July) my ball striking improved immensely. I immediately knocked my scores down to around 50 for 9 holes; and between yesterday and today I just broke 90 for 18! I've never had this much fun on a golf course; I'd always have those blowup holes where I'd get a +4 for 2-3 holes in a row and destroy it. Now I have confidence over my ball; I have a draw (which I never thought would happen knowing how badly I over-sliced the ball before with my out to in swing); and I've gained 25-30 yards per club. My 1989 Hogan Forged have probably never been hit this well. Long par 5s are no longer "ok, lets try for a double", I have a shot at par! I still have some mishits, but I know what I'm doing wrong for the first time ever as well.

Heck, I was paired up and somebody asked *me* for a little help on their swing! And my help actually worked! Golf is now my heroin solely because of the SnT swing.

Love you guys!

[Stretch]

Right now I'm having trouble getting my head around the follow-through and rehinge in the S&T; pattern. Am working on holding the flying wedge and not flipping, but feel like I'm doing unnatural stuff after impact that is stopping the club from throwing out properly. If this image makes any sense, at the finish I feel like the left wrist has stayed flat all the way through and the heel of the right hand has pushed straight toward the target. The through-swing stops as the arms reach maximum extension at chest height -- kind of like a full punch shot. Then I look at this video of Mike Bennett and it seems to me the right wrist really rolls over pretty aggressively after impact, allowing the club to go back up the plane and him to end with the wrists fully rehinged. Do I have this right conceptually? And how should one work on this -- what's the right word -- release?



Here is the sequence clipped from the film.

[Easy]

Not really a question; but something I wanted to share none-the-less.

I'm exactly like you. I used to view par 5's with absolute dread, I love the par 5s now. Even though I'm probably not past the hacker phase, I now know why I sliced that shot, or hooked another shot. Golf is fun when you can hit the ball in the air a good distance and be able to get the ball where you aimed at. Instead of just hoping it goes in the air so you don't look too stupid.