Laying back on short Par 4's

[rhodes81]

Guys, I swear I am a 3.8. I know its surprising that this shot is giving me problems, but that is what makes it even more frustrating. I am just not comfortable over that shot on that hole right now. I am gonna try laying back for a few rounds and just see if it helps. Too often, I grab my driver and my ego and let it rip on 1 and its just not working out right now. Believe it or not, a low single digit handicapper struggles with things too. You will see when you get there! I just wanted a little helpful advice and to hear if any one else used this strategy. Golf is a game of gentleman and I assume everyone is telling the truth until proven otherwise, not vice versa. I do appreciate the discussion and the advice, I just resent the fact that my handicap is being called into question. All of you should know by now that this is a game of ups and downs, and right now this shot for me is a down.

For those of you that don't believe it, go to GSGA and search Shane Rhodes.

[zeg]

There are a couple short (280-330 yard) par 4s on my course and I usually play 3W or 3H off the tee, sometimes even a 4I. Partly it is because this leaves me with a full wedge shot, but also because it almost guarantees a hit fairway. It doesn't do me any good to knock 30 yards off my approach if I have to chip out or play a punchy shot because of a low-hanging tree.

I also find that, while it's nice as a novelty to have a 50 yard pitch for my second shot, even as a 28 handicapper I am good enough from about 80-120 yards that I'll usually find the green reasonably close to the pin. In my case, I'm a bit wilder left to right but a LOT more accurate distance-wise than I am on the pitches. Also, I probably blade or chunk the pitch more often than the full swing, not least because of the excitement of having a short game shot in to the green. In the end, those extra few yards off the tee just aren't worth the risk for me .

But, for anyone, the only way to make this decision is to know your own game. It's absolutely not automatic that your feely pitch shots are lights out better than a full game. Heck, for a lot of us it's hard to find a place to practice those shots between about 25 yards and 80 yards, since short game areas are too short and often the driving ranges don't mark anything short of 80 to 100 yards.

[mdl]

Guys, I swear I am a 3.8. I know its surprising that this shot is giving me problems, but that is what makes it even more frustrating. I am just not comfortable over that shot on that hole right now. I am gonna try laying back for a few rounds and just see if it helps. Too often, I grab my driver and my ego and let it rip on 1 and its just not working out right now. Believe it or not, a low single digit handicapper struggles with things too. You will see when you get there! I just wanted a little helpful advice and to hear if any one else used this strategy. Golf is a game of gentleman and I assume everyone is telling the truth until proven otherwise, not vice versa. I do appreciate the discussion and the advice, I just resent the fact that my handicap is being called into question. All of you should know by now that this is a game of ups and downs, and right now this shot for me is a down.

Can't speak for others, but I'm with you on assuming people are telling the truth unless it's proven otherwise or they have a pattern of making super unrealistic claims. And only see one comment that could be interpreted as really questioning your HC. In my comment, I didn't mean to call your honesty into question. I was just saying that you always hear from low cappers that once you get to high single digits, for most people it's tons of work with the short irons, wedges, and the putter (ie the scoring clubs) that gets you towards scratch, so it's surprising to hear that a 3.8 is struggling not just to find the green with a 50 yard wedge, but even chunking it!

[The Recreational Golfer]

Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer

??? These shots really aren't that hard to hit. If you play to avoid one situation, you start avoiding other situations and pretty soon you're playing defensive golf the entire round. If there's a hole in your game, patch it up!

That doesn't necessarily follow. Course management isn't defensive golf, it's smart golf. If you love your SW at 80 yards, why on earth would you hit the ball to 40 yards where you have to play a feel shot? That's just bad advice. Even the pros try to avoid those situations most of the time.

It doesn't follow because that isn't the argument I was making. I never mentioned course management. What I meant was that if you shy away from one shot, you can start shying away from other shots, too. Then you think, "stay away from here, and don't hit this shot," which is a reaction to the holes in your game that you haven't patched up, and you gradually narrow down your thinking to only playing super safe shots, instead of getting a game and taking it to the course.

Maybe no one intentionally puts themselves in difficult situations, but sometimes you are just in one because we don't play perfect golf. See this, and I mean read item number 1, not look at the picture: http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2...natalie_gulbis

So you feel that you routinely hit 40-80 yard shots within 10 feet of the pin? It's not hard to get the 40-80 yard shot on the green, but to get them within scoring range I think it's easier with a full swing.

No, but I don't do that from 110 yards, either. My experience is that by playing to avoid a particular distance, and I used to do it from this very range, you find yourself at times making compromises you don't want to make just to stay out of the undesirable zone. I don't hit in there intentionally, like I welcome every opportunity, but if I'm in there, I am, and I have the shot to deal with it.

I see it being aggressive...that is getting yourself into a position to hit an aggressive wedge shot right at the hole. My ability to park the ball close to the hole from 80 yards is just so much easier with the L wedge than it is from 45. Like Fourputt mentioned, 45 is more of a feel shot whereas 80 is an easy full swing.

It would be aggressive if I had said that you should always try to play from that distance in preference to another one, or something like that, but I never said that. I said that if you avoid this distance, you can start avoiding other things that you really shouldn't be avoiding, because you have adopted a defensive mind set. There's a hole in your game and your thinking, because avoiding things takes away options. As I see it, the answers to the questions "How do I avoid the 40- to 80-yard range," and "Where do I hit the ball to give my next shot the best chance," are not always the same answers.

[chef35ca]

Putting a full swing club in your hands is always a good idea. Between 115yds out & 30yds out i think most people would do better with the longer full shot.

First hole at my course is 310. Major trouble left & right. But oddly enough alot of room to land a driver. I watch guys in the morning hit into the 3 consectutive bunkers & screw their whole round in 5 minutes. I could write a book on the human psyche & decision making process based on that one hole. Scrambles are even funnier. Inevitably some group decides to play out of bunker #1 which is about 65yds of carry, high lip, water hazard on far side.

[iacas]

Putting a full swing club in your hands is always a good idea. Between 115yds out & 30yds out i think most people would do better with the longer full shot.

The stats don't bear that out. They will tell you that the average amateur will hit the ball closer to the hole the closer they are to the hole, on average.

Which makes sense. This old poppycock about "lay up to a comfortable yardage" is crap. Heck, a mid-handicapper is as likely to miss the green from 110 yards as he is to hit it inside of 20 feet.

First hole at my course is 310. Major trouble left & right. But oddly enough alot of room to land a driver. I watch guys in the morning hit into the 3 consectutive bunkers & screw their whole round in 5 minutes.

That's different than laying up where there's no trouble versus getting closer where there's no trouble. It's never advisable to lay up into trouble areas.

[SteelCitySlice]

I tend to play a 3W or 3i on short par 4s as well, but lately that's because my driver has been really unreliable. I think, personally, the closer I am to the hole the more comfortable I feel that I'm going to be able to get it close to the pin. That said, if you're having trouble from that distance and you know you can hit the GIR or stick it close from 100-125 yrds, then why not play to that distance?? I don't see anything wrong with going with what works for you until you can shore up your game from 40-80 yrds. Of course you're going to work on your pitching/chipping and try to improve your approach shots from that distance, but to me, until that happens, you should play from they distance that you feel comfortable with.

[newtogolf]

Advice I was given was to use the range and practice sessions to improve your weaknesses, and play to your strengths when you're on the course. I don't see it as avoiding shots or defensive golf if the OP tries to put himself in the best position to score given his strengths and weaknesses. Should he work on hitting his 40-80 yards shots during practice, of course, but during play I don't see why he would want to put himself in a position he's not mentally comfortable.

[sean_miller]

Minimizing mistakes, taking advantage of opportunities, playing to your strengths, managing risk/reward situations . . . etcetera.

On the hole I was referring to, a 3-iron leaves ~ 80 yards. A 3-wood leaves me about 40 yards. A driver might put me in a pot bunker of some gnarly rough which surrounds all but a narrow opening front left. On that hole, driver is the sucker play. It seems reachable but maybe 5% would be in a better position with a driver than with a FW or long iron.

Will I hit the ball closer to the pin from 40 than 80 yards? Probably, but not that much. What about 25 yards versus 80 yards? Probably a bit better. Since I know I can't reach the green with an iron or 3-wood, I swing a bit smoother. A crisply struck 3-iron or 3-wood to the centre of the fairway does more for my confidence than a driver pounded into a greenside pot bunker or pulled into the rough. I mean, with the proper shaft, a monkey could hit a modern driver, so it's easy to get over confident.

Coincidentally, that same smooth swing with a driver on hole #2 allows me to cut the corner on that dogleg par 5. Driver/sand wedge is not uncommon for longer hitters who are able to cut off >100 yards.

[Fourputt]

It doesn't follow because that isn't the argument I was making. I never mentioned course management. What I meant was that if you shy away from one shot, you can start shying away from other shots, too. Then you think, "stay away from here, and don't hit this shot," which is a reaction to the holes in your game that you haven't patched up, and you gradually narrow down your thinking to only playing super safe shots, instead of getting a game and taking it to the course.

But the whole point of the OP's post IS course management. He's talking about playing to a point which gives him the best chance to

score . Isn't that what course management is? Course management is about not putting yourself in trouble by poor planning. That's all he's doing. He isn't saying that he doesn't practice that shot, only that it gives him trouble on that hole consistently, so he's considering a different strategy.

Maybe no one intentionally puts themselves in difficult situations, but sometimes you are just in one because we don't play perfect golf.

I see players do this all the time. Maybe it isn't planned but that is the problem with their games... they don't plan, just pull the driver on every hole without any consideration for the problems it might create. I don't see any difference between avoiding trouble and trying not to leave yourself trouble shots. Certainly we sometimes leave ourselves problems... it wouldn't be golf if we didn't. But by thinking ahead a player should significantly reduce the number of times he does get in trouble.

It would be aggressive if I had said that you should always try to play from that distance in preference to another one, or something like that, but I never said that.

I still disagree. I'm a cautious player when caution is indicated, but I still have a naturally aggressive mindset and I go for it if there is a reasonable chance that the aggressive route will give me a better score. I've had to work to curb my aggressiveness on the course. I simply try to be honest about my limitations and like anyone, I'm going for the best score possible. That can lead me either way, aggressive or cautious, just depending on the situation. Again, it all comes down to managing the course and fitting it to my game.

[Fat Slice]

I guess it depends on the layout of the hole. If a driver have a good chance to go in the woods, the sand, the water, etc., it would be smarter to hit something straighter and shorter. I have a hard time hitting short pitch shots over hazards with super tight lies. So, if the fairway is cut tight I'd rather not try that shot. However, if I can safely bump and run, and there's no trouble with the driver, then why not? Usually, however, I will hit a hybrid and a wedge.

The other day I had the situation on the 8th hole (321 yards). A well hit driver would put me 50-70 yards out. If I didn't hit the driver well, there were two fat bunkers waiting to eat up the ball. I hit a 2-hybrid and ended up right in front of those bunkers leaving 94 yards. I stuck a 58 degree wedge to 9 inches. While the statistics say that I will hit a better shot from closer in, I still have to *get* closer in, and that's the issue for me. The layup isn't for an easier shot from a swing standpoint, it's for a safer first shot.

[TourSpoon]

Maybe no one intentionally puts themselves in difficult situations, but sometimes you are just in one because we don't play perfect golf. See this, and I mean read item number 1, not look at the picture:

Sorry, I had to look at the picture...but I see your point, if someone looked at the picture they might just totally forget to read anything!

I have been giving this some more thought and do see where my strategy and thinking would change depending on the situation. The difference would be what the best shot to hit into the green would be so it would depend upon the make-up of the hole. For example, there is a hole on my home course that is a short par four with serious water and bunkering in front, the green is very wide, but not all that deep. With that hole the key is distance control and having the ability to generate enough spin to stop the ball. You have to carry the water (not a huge deal) and then make sure to clear the cavernous bunker. To me, a fuller wedge is the percentage play especially if the pin is tucked behind the bunker. A 40 yard leave with this situation is not the best strategy, especially given the depth of the green. I also played the New Course at Grand Cypress which is an Old Course tribute course. On some holes the greens are very receptive to shots from 40-60 yards (especially the greens that had some depth and were sloped from back to front. In this case I bombed away knowing that the 40 yard shot would be a decent leave especially given the options of how to play that shot and the fact that the consequences of a poor shot were not that penal. In that situation I would hit it all and found that I hit all kinds of shots including bump and runs, pitches, and some regular air-mail for the second. Now they did have a couple of weird spots where you could leave yourself a pitch over the burn to an immediate green, again I would prefer to have laid back a bit. So to me it really comes down to strategy and what the hole gives you. When is the last time you hit into a water hazard in front of the green and where then faced with the option of dropping the ball as far back as you wanted to? What did you do? The point being, the shot you face, what the green gives you, what lurks as a consequence for missing, and what your strengths are should all factor into your plan on how to attack a hole. If you fail to execute your plan and have to get creative, then you should have all the shots as well.

[ohiolefty]

Good thread. Dumb replies.


To the OP, you should play the hole that day in the way that you feel the most comfortable and natural. If you can lay back and then let a full PW rip into the green and you feel better with that, are less incumbered by swing throughts and self-doubt with that, than you are with hitting a 40 yard wedge...lay back.

In regards to all the a-holes on here questioning your handicap (which is better than many of theirs) in response to your OP...that's dumb. Of COURSE you should practice all the shots inside of 100 yards. But, that's not what the post is really about.

You should play the simplest shots for you to play THAT day. Period. Don't overcomplicate the game. Hopefully, you get your short game to the point where the best way to play the whole is to let it rip and then hit the wedge. Until then, lay back and hit good shots. It's golf...not Greek theatre.

[TourSpoon]

It's golf...not Greek theatre.

Even so, Euripides would agree with your post.

[SouthernILGolfer]

I had one of those 50-55 yard shots yesterday for my 2nd. 4th hole at Colonial Golf Course in Sandoval, IL. 338 yard par 4 with wind helping a bit, I hit perhaps the best drive ive hit maybe ever, nice low bullet, dead straight about 285 yards so, just over 50 yards to the green. Now I dont normally ever hit the ball that far, Im usually lucky to get it to around 100 yards on this hole or maybe a little more, which would be a full pw. I still use my pw for anything inside of that and did for this shot. I bladed it a bit, ball came in low and hot and skipped over the back of the green and i made bogey. I did drop another ball after I hit that one and lobbed it on the green pin high to about 20 ft away, always easier to correct a mistake after. Still only +2 through the first 4 holes(2 pars and 2 bogeys) but only one more par after that and after a triple on the 8th hole after dunking my 2nd in the hazard(and almost my 4th after taking my drop) I still made a 45(+10) so still decent score for me but could have easily been 3-4 strokes better. Even so, ill still take my chances with a 50-60 yard feel shot but as I said earlier, im normally not long enough to get that close so wasnt really counting on getting a shot like that.

[Fozcycle]

I believe it's called......Course Management

You should always examine the hole and work back from the green to decide what clubs to use....if you have a good 100 yd wedge, then start at that point and work back to the tee for proper club selection.

[The Recreational Golfer]

But the whole point of the OP's post IS course management. He's talking about playing to a point which gives him the best chance to

I think we're sitting around the same campfire. I don't disagree with anything you wrote. Yes, the OP was talking about course management, but I was responding to this odd advice to avoid 40-80 yards range unless you're a pro. I still say, these shots aren't that hard. If I have a chance to put my tee ball 40 yards from the pin, I'll do it! and I'll get my next shot closer than if I played back to ~100 yards.

As for not playing perfect golf, I meant you don't plan to be at a certain place, but sometimes you hit a clinker and there you are. So you'd better have the shot to keep playing good golf. I don't plan to hit the ball into bunkers, but I do from time to time and I have the shot to get out and have a chance. Also, having that shot allows me to hit into green complexes I used to shy away from when my sand game was terrible. As for the OP, I would recommend finding a way to solve the problem that particular hole presents and become a more capable golfer because of it--not in order not to play it that way all the time, but to give himself a choice.

[Gioguy21]

hmm...do i go for short par 4's...the best answer of all answers. IT DEPENDS.