Smart Phone GPS Now Not Allowed?

[boogielicious]

Quote:

I'm inclined to say that those of you who think knowing wind speed and direction doesn't help much apparently haven't played competitive golf at a reasonably high level

Erik,

I think that's the point I was making.  Weather.com (or an app) is going to tell you the general wind direction for the closest weather station, but not exactly where you are.  In New England, the wind can be very variable for direction, which is why you need to look all around and up.  Tree tops and clouds are good indicators as you have stated.  The Beaufort scale is also a good thing to know.

I wouldn't trust an app for anything other than general speed and direction.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

I wouldn't trust an app for anything other than general speed and direction.

But you aren't allowed to!

[jamo]

I apologize for this being a dumb (and possibly off-topic) question, but where does the USGA draw the line in the sand regarding what is an isn't a smartphone? I have a touch-screen phone, but it's not sold as a smartphone, and doesn't run iOS, Android, WM7, or the BlackBerry OS, but it does have a built-in weather app and a browser that I could conceivably use. I'd give this it's own thread, but it's probably a one-post answer.

[newtogolf]

“A smartphone in and of itself isn’t a problem,” said David Staebler, director of rules education for the USGA. “The problem lies with the applications that may be available on the phone.”

In the future, even more smartphones appear to be headed for the nonconforming category.  Why? Because they include applications capable of measuring golf-course conditions other than distance. These conditions include slope, as well as wind velocity or direction.

Originally Posted by jamo

I apologize for this being a dumb (and possibly off-topic) question, but where does the USGA draw the line in the sand regarding what is an isn't a smartphone? I have a touch-screen phone, but it's not sold as a smartphone, and doesn't run iOS, Android, WM7, or the BlackBerry OS, but it does have a built-in weather app and a browser that I could conceivably use.

I'd give this it's own thread, but it's probably a one-post answer.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

The pros have circumvented the whole yardage thing with the books, amateurs on a new course will have no clue what to hit because they didn't do a week of preparation. I think allowing yardage books is a stupid exception to the rule, if they don't allow rangefinders. Using GPS and weather apps in a casual round doesn't bother me one bit, but remember that the governing bodies care mostly about pro competition and don't legislate in any way to benefit casual golfers.

Rangefinders are allowed, and pros didn't "circumvent" the rules - yardage (distance) has always been "common knowledge." You can ask an opponent what a sprinkler head says, for example, and he will tell you. It's not "advice" because it's common knowledge, just like "is there a pond behind this green?" is not asking for advice.

Originally Posted by jamo

I apologize for this being a dumb (and possibly off-topic) question, but where does the USGA draw the line in the sand regarding what is an isn't a smartphone? I have a touch-screen phone, but it's not sold as a smartphone, and doesn't run iOS, Android, WM7, or the BlackBerry OS, but it does have a built-in weather app and a browser that I could conceivably use.

I'd give this it's own thread, but it's probably a one-post answer.

It's not the phone itself, it's the weather (etc.) app(s) on it.

[x129]

My understanding is that any phone with downloadable apps (i.e. pretty much all of them) fall into the ban category since there is no way to prove what you had or didn't have installed. In the past it might have only been phones with compasses and the like but if a weather app gets you banned, it is pretty much any phone.

Originally Posted by iacas

Rangefinders are allowed, and pros didn't "circumvent" the rules - yardage (distance) has always been "common knowledge." You can ask an opponent what a sprinkler head says, for example, and he will tell you. It's not "advice" because it's common knowledge, just like "is there a pond behind this green?" is not asking for advice.

It's not the phone itself, it's the weather (etc.) app(s) on it.

[mdl]

A huge percentage of the rules of golf are essentially enforced on an honor system.  Declaring that it's now illegal to know exact distances unless you can afford to spend 4-20 times more money (for a dedicated device, rather than an app), because the phone could theoretically be used for other purposes just seems sort of silly, anachronistic, and a bit elitist.

I can gain strokes by failing to report that I moved a ball accidentally but in a way that should be penalized, testing the sand when no one's looking, or a myriad other ways.  It seems obvious that the ruling should remain what seems to be the current understanding, that you may use a GPS app on your phone but may not use any other information gathering apps or features during the round.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by mdl

A huge percentage of the rules of golf are essentially enforced on an honor system.  Declaring that it's now illegal to know exact distances unless you can afford to spend 4-20 times more money (for a dedicated device, rather than an app), because the phone could theoretically be used for other purposes just seems sort of silly, anachronistic, and a bit elitist.

I can gain strokes by failing to report that I moved a ball accidentally but in a way that should be penalized, testing the sand when no one's looking, or a myriad other ways.  It seems obvious that the ruling should remain what seems to be the current understanding, that you may use a GPS app on your phone but may not use any other information gathering apps or features during the round.

This is the way I would like it to be. I like using GameBook very much and would hate writing all the statistics on a piece of paper just in order to type them in my phone after a competitive round. IMO it stinks and far.

Think about the entire concept of GameBook. It is designed and marketed for the clubs to have more thrill in a competition and provide many different forms to compete. Then comes USGA/R&A; and says you are not allowed to use it in a competition. Ridiculous!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mdl

A huge percentage of the rules of golf are essentially enforced on an honor system.  Declaring that it's now illegal to know exact distances unless you can afford to spend 4-20 times more money (for a dedicated device, rather than an app), because the phone could theoretically be used for other purposes just seems sort of silly, anachronistic, and a bit elitist.

I was wondering how long it would be until someone brought up the cost.

Look, if you're competing seriously, then you've invested thousands of dollars into golf. $99 for a GPS isn't going to break the bank. Two dozen golf balls cost almost that much. The "elitist" argument holds no water because nothing's stopping you from creating your own yardage book for the cost of a few pieces of paper and a pencil.

Originally Posted by mdl

I can gain strokes by failing to report that I moved a ball accidentally but in a way that should be penalized, testing the sand when no one's looking, or a myriad other ways.  It seems obvious that the ruling should remain what seems to be the current understanding, that you may use a GPS app on your phone but may not use any other information gathering apps or features during the round.

Those are all "when nobody's looking." Again, they are more visible than literally looking over someone's shoulder to see what app they're using on their phone. I can see you testing the condition of the sand from 50 yards away. I can't necessarily tell what app you're using on your phone from five feet away.

[newtogolf]

Really?  You think the USGA is concerned about cost when $400 drivers and $350 putters are the norm?  Golf in many ways is an elitist sport, we may not see it as such or wish it to be that way but look at the dress codes, the country clubs, "gentleman rules", etc.   Hogan, Vardon, and Snead played golf pretty well without a GPS / laser measuring device and they didn't have labeled sprinker heads either.  I've seen GPS's for $100, and lasers for $150.  You're not going to win a debate with the USGA using cost and concern over elitism as your primary argument, sorry.

Originally Posted by mdl

A huge percentage of the rules of golf are essentially enforced on an honor system.  Declaring that it's now illegal to know exact distances unless you can afford to spend 4-20 times more money (for a dedicated device, rather than an app), because the phone could theoretically be used for other purposes just seems sort of silly, anachronistic, and a bit elitist.

I can gain strokes by failing to report that I moved a ball accidentally but in a way that should be penalized, testing the sand when no one's looking, or a myriad other ways.  It seems obvious that the ruling should remain what seems to be the current understanding, that you may use a GPS app on your phone but may not use any other information gathering apps or features during the round.

[Yukari]

Personally, I think the "dedicated" GPS makers wanted to stay in business and lobbied hard to come up with this rule.

Let's face it, Pro's can't use any time of electronic devices during a competitive round anyway.  So this rule is basically designed to prevent your amateurs from using smartphones on the golf course.  And how many amateurs actually look at the weather information on the smartphones when they play?  I would guess only a handful, if that.

Clearly, SkyCaddie and other GPS makers are aware of declining sales due to smartphones and have lobbied hard to try to ban smartphones by coming up with a round about way of doing so.

Just my 2 cents.

Happy New Year, everyone!!!  May your New Year be joyous and prosperous one compared to 2011!!!

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by mdl

A huge percentage of the rules of golf are essentially enforced on an honor system.  ...

I think this is the real issue. Why is a phone singled out because you can use it to cheat if you are a cheater? It is not inherently made to break the rules. Simply using it does not break any rules (except the one that says you can not use it). You'd need to use an app that is against the rules and this would be something you'd need to do willfully. What makes this different from other rules protected by honor?

A few years ago my driver would have been illegal because it was adjustable. Now it is legal but, on my honor, I can not adjust it during a round. I certainly could adjust it while no one was looking. Just as I could sneak to my car at the turn and swap my driver for a different one. The same logic should hold for my iPhone. I should be able to use apps that do not violate the (other) rules. GolfShot GPS does not have a weather feature or a compass.

This is simply a bad rule IMHO.

[Missouri Swede]

So if Bubba was tweeting during a round (not a competition round, as I understand) using a phone that has any compass app built-in and gets a 58 for the round, is his score invalid for posting as a course record?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

I think this is the real issue. Why is a phone singled out because you can use it to cheat if you are a cheater? It is not inherently made to break the rules. Simply using it does not break any rules (except the one that says you can not use it). You'd need to use an app that is against the rules and this would be something you'd need to do willfully.

You're seemingly forgetting that a "phone" isn't singled out.

You cannot use a laser rangefinder that includes the ability to measure slope even if the function is turned off and never accessed . It's exactly the same rule . You cannot use a dedicated GPS device that also shows you the weather (if there is such a thing) even if the function is turned off and never accessed.

It's exactly the same rule .

If your laser or GPS also made phone calls, but did nothing else, it would be perfectly legal. Or if you phone did GPS or had a laser and did nothing else, it too would be legal.

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

What makes this different from other rules protected by honor?

As I've suggested - and I'm guessing - the other "honor" rules can still be witnessed rather easily by other players. Your ball moves? Someone else could reasonably see that from a distance. You launch an app quickly and switch back to the GPS a few seconds later? Someone would have a heck of a time seeing that from a distance.

Golf is an "honor" sport but that doesn't mean the rules should make it easy for the dishonorable people to cheat. This rule protects the honorable people from those who would do things they think they can get away with.

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

A few years ago my driver would have been illegal because it was adjustable. Now it is legal but, on my honor, I can not adjust it during a round. I certainly could adjust it while no one was looking. Just as I could sneak to my car at the turn and swap my driver for a different one. The same logic should hold for my iPhone. I should be able to use apps that do not violate the (other) rules. GolfShot GPS does not have a weather feature or a compass.

Adjusting a driver during the round wouldn't require someone to peer over your shoulder and it takes longer than a few seconds, like turning the slope function on a laser rangefinder and then turning it off. Or switching apps on a phone quickly.

Again, I don't agree that "the same logic should apply." It's a different act. It's an act that you can do without someone else reasonably being able to see you doing it. The guy who sneaks to his car at the turn half of his rounds WILL be found out. The guy looking at an app on his phone may never be found out.

The situations are not the same.

Originally Posted by Missouri Swede

So if Bubba was tweeting during a round (not a competition round, as I understand) using a phone that has any compass app built-in and gets a 58 for the round, is his score invalid for posting as a course record?

It's not invalid as a handicap round, so I don't see why it would be invalid as a course record.

Some courses say that course records can only be counted if they're played during a tournament (that's really rare, but I know of at least one). It's kind of up to the course to decide what it considers a "course record."

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by Missouri Swede

So if Bubba was tweeting during a round (not a competition round, as I understand) using a phone that has any compass app built-in and gets a 58 for the round, is his score invalid for posting as a course record?

Correct. Because it not a competition round.

[Missouri Swede]

I'm a little confused about what rules apply when, then. If I understand correctly, this all deals with rule 14-3, right?

Is rule 14-3 only for tournaments, or is it for daily play?

If I'm playing a round (for handicap, but not in a tournament) while using a smartphone app during the round;

and rule 14-3 says I'm not allowed to use a smartphone app with disqualification being the penalty for breaking the rule,

then why is my score allowed to be posted?

I'm not trying to be contrary or argumentative here; I'm just asking an honest question about when this rule (or any other rule) applies. If I hit my ball into a water hazard, I take my drop and add on my penalty stroke because rule 26 says that's what we do. It wouldn't be right to ignore the penalty stroke and then expect my score to really count toward a handicap, right? So why is 14-3 different?

[boogielicious]

I am enjoying this thread a lot.  There are a lot of good points being made.

Quote:

Hogan, Vardon, and Snead played golf pretty well without a GPS / laser measuring device and they didn't have labeled sprinker heads either.

They didn't have the marked heads, but their caddies knew exactly how many paces it was to trouble and the green.  My father-in-law was a caddie in the 1920's and '30s.  They paced the whole course and knew distances by heart.  It was their job to know.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by iacas

http://gps.about.com/od/sportsandfitness/a/USGA-iPhone-GPS-Ban.htm?rd=1

That's what Fred thinks at About GPS:

What do you think? Did the rules change in 2012? Can smart phone GPS apps be used legally (when sanctioned) or are they now non-conforming?

Custom ROM on an Android

No Browser, no Weather App.