My Swing (PumaAttack)

[iacas]

More lies Tony.

I elaborated each time with the "why." Mike elaborated and you ignored that.

Enough.

[mvmac]

@pumaAttack I didn't tell you to "model" your swing after Ko's, I was giving you an example of someone that is doing the opposite of what you're doing. Face looking "down" at 2, standing the shaft up at 3, this will make the shallowing move a lot more natural. 

30 minutes ago, iacas said:

They look "okay" at 6 but you have to consider where the shaft and sweetspot were and where they're going.

Exactly, you have to consider the entire motion. When the swing goes "shallow to steep" consistency is going to be hard to achieve because of the compensations you have to make with the sweetspot. Yes at 6 you may be pointing the shaft outside the ball but it's also steeper than you were at 3, these things matter. If you had the same shaft alignment at 5 that you do at 3 you'd miss the ball, so you in order to make contact you have to steepen the shaft. While the shaft is still outside the ball at 5 the sweetspot is going to move differently than if you were "steep to shallow".

@pumaAttack I wasn't aware that you were still on Evolvr or that they had already made recommendations, I'm sure your instructor has mentioned the backswing and that it's part of their gameplan to address it. I was just trying to help, you mentioned you are trying to shallow the shaft on the downswing, I saw where you were on the downswing so I figured I'd post.

[pumaAttack]

11 minutes ago, mvmac said:

@pumaAttack I didn't tell you to "model" your swing after Ko's, I was giving you an example of someone that is doing the opposite of what you're doing. Face looking "down" at 2, standing the shaft up at 3, this will make the shallowing move a lot more natural. 

Exactly, you have to consider the entire motion. When the swing goes "shallow to steep" consistency is going to be hard to achieve because of the compensations you have to make with the sweetspot. Yes at 6 you may be pointing the shaft outside the ball but it's also steeper than you were at 3, these things matter. If you had the same shaft alignment at 5 that you do at 3 you'd miss the ball, so you in order to make contact you have to steepen the shaft. While the shaft is still outside the ball at 5 the sweetspot is going to move differently than if you were "steep to shallow".

@pumaAttack I wasn't aware that you were still on Evolvr or that they had already made recommendations, I'm sure your instructor has mentioned the backswing and that it's part of their gameplan to address it. I was just trying to help, you mentioned you are trying to shallow the shaft on the downswing, I saw where you were on the downswing so I figured I'd post.

I have been working with an Evolvr coach for a while and he has not addressed those concerns at a2 and in fact called my position a perfect example and something he would show to other students.  So your instructions do not match up for me.   It is frustrating to hear you make comments like that when they don't match up with what my coach says.  

I still don't get why it matters if it goes from shallow to slightly steeper on the downswing.   Look at Furyks swing, is he hitting all the key positions?  If I hit A5 to A6 why does A3 matter anymore?

If Robert Rock had the same angle at 5 as he does at 3 he would miss the ball too..  What is the difference in steep to shallow?  OR shallow to steep, but still outside the ball?

 

[pumaAttack]

@mvmac @iacas

I have a friend who is also on Evolvr and got feedback today from his coach that his swing is looking great and has no changes at this time.

I looked at his swing.  He goes from really shallow at A3 and then slightly steeper at a5.  Why is that ok for him and not for me?  Seems a little hypocritical, eh?

[Golfingdad]

13 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

I have been working with an Evolvr coach for a while and he has not addressed those concerns at a2 and in fact called my position a perfect example and something he would show to other students.  So your instructions do not match up for me.   It is frustrating to hear you make comments like that when they don't match up with what my coach says.  

I still don't get why it matters if it goes from shallow to slightly steeper on the downswing.   Look at Furyks swing, is he hitting all the key positions?  If I hit A5 to A6 why does A3 matter anymore?

If Robert Rock had the same angle at 5 as he does at 3 he would miss the ball too..  What is the difference in steep to shallow?  OR shallow to steep, but still outside the ball?

Dude, he like, literally, answered some of the questions you're asking in this post in the post you quoted.

You are right about one thing, though.  If you're already working with an instructor, you shouldn't be muddying the waters with advice from other sources.  In fact, Erik and Mike make points to not offer advice when they know that, so you should have just mentioned that from the start.

[pumaAttack]

2 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Dude, he like, literally, answered some of the questions you're asking in this post in the post you quoted.

You are right about one thing, though.  If you're already working with an instructor, you shouldn't be muddying the waters with advice from other sources.  In fact, Erik and Mike make points to not offer advice when they know that, so you should have just mentioned that from the start.

No he didn't...  Every swing needs compensatory moves, why is mine so awful?  I said that going from steep inside the ball to shallow outside the ball has the same recovery motion needed.   Nobody is perfectly pointing at the ball the entire time...

I have yet to hear why going from shallow to slightly steeper is so bad...  Especially now that another Evolvr coach has stated my friends swing is right on and prescribed no changes at the time...  He literally has the same angles as me for both A3 to A5 so obviously its ok to go from shallow to steep on the downswing.

 

[Ernest Jones]

Oh my, what a waste of free advice.  

@pumaAttack, just stick to your Evolvr coach and don't go fishing in other holes, seriously, stay the course!

[pumaAttack]

1 minute ago, Ernest Jones said:

Oh my, what a waste of free advice.  

@pumaAttack, just stick to your Evolvr coach and don't go fishing in other holes, seriously, stay the course!

I know it was meant to be a progress journal and Erik attacks me for no reason. 

 

And yes.  I will never post another video here again.  Only Evolvr.  @iacas has ruined this thread for me. 

[iacas]

26 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

I know it was meant to be a progress journal and Erik attacks me for no reason. 

And yes.  I will never post another video here again.  Only Evolvr.  @iacas has ruined this thread for me. 

Yeah. Cuz that's what happened.

[pumaAttack]

Just now, iacas said:

Yeah. Cuz that's what happened.

Of course your ego doesn't see that...

[Phil McGleno]

12 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

Of course your ego doesn't see that...

Huh?-Tony not a good swing. Hands up, fake the depth, shaft steepening through entire downswing.

Oh no I just attacked you by sharing my opinion of your golf swing!-My ego! My ego! I can not help myself!

Hello. My name is My Ego Montoya. You killed my golf swing. Prepare to die.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, pumaAttack said:

it is also RUDE to repeatedly cut out my other comments and just attack my backswing when its not my priority piece, which you should know all about.

I don't know what is going on between you and your Evolvr coach, but afaik, if shallowing the downswing properly is your priority piece, then the backswing is part of the priority piece, because the backswing affects the downswing.

1 hour ago, pumaAttack said:

I still don't get why it matters if it goes from shallow to slightly steeper on the downswing.   Look at Furyks swing, is he hitting all the key positions?

You don't really want to pick an outlier as a swing model. It's hard enough to work towards a swing that is similar to what hundreds of pros do. Jim Furyk is the only one in the world that swings the club like that at a high level.

1 hour ago, pumaAttack said:

If I hit A5 to A6 why does A3 matter anymore?

As been stated, you don't really hit A5. Your hands are too deep. You hit A6, but by A7 you can swing too far out to the right because of A5. The swing is more than snapshots frozen in time.

1 hour ago, pumaAttack said:

I looked at his swing.  He goes from really shallow at A3 and then slightly steeper at a5.  Why is that ok for him and not for me?  Seems a little hypocritical, eh?

Well what's his story? Is his priority piece the same as yours? Has he been working on it the same time, the same length of time, etc.? All of that matters.

Perhaps his coach said his swing is fine because he wants him to ingrain whatever it is they were working on together for longer before they move onto the next piece. Making too many changes too quickly is counterproductive because one may "forget" and earlier piece while working on a new one.

17 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

Of course your ego doesn't see that...

I'm going to be honest with you here, take it how you will, but as a third party to this conflict, it looks to me that it is your ego that appears to be the issue here. You posted something along the lines of "I've got it" and when @iacas told you that you didn't, you got defensive.

Take a step back, read everything over again from another perspective, please.

[RandallT]

@pumaAttack, you've been around long enough to know the feedback here is direct. You clearly feel wronged that your question hasn't been answered to your satisfaction and that you feel there is conflicting advice from your instructor. My take on things is that if you'd simply have stuck with that fairly matter-of-factly, this would not have turned south.

When you escalated about it being an "awful answer," my take is that was the catalyst to set in motion the snowball rolling downhill. You and I have a good rapport, but I gotta side with the staff on this one, my friend. Some of your responses seemed excessively testy, and almost setting a bait for them to respond negatively.

Relax tonight, forget this crap, and we can come on back another day after some time has passed. There'll be discussions with your instructor to clarify it all, and you'll get your answers. Doing it in this fashion isn't worth it in my mind.

 

[jamo]

21 minutes ago, billchao said:

I don't know what is going on between you and your Evolvr coach, but afaik, if shallowing the downswing properly is your priority piece, then the backswing is part of the priority piece, because the backswing affects the downswing.

I think @billchao has it nailed here. The backswing matters because it sets up the downswing. If your backswing leaves you with a cupped wrist and the club laid off, that's going to affect your downswing. If there's a discrepancy between what you're hearing from your evolvr coach and in this thread, it's easy enough to talk to them all at once and hash out the differences. 

I think it might be a good idea for everyone to take a step back.

@pumaAttack, just because the initial answers you got earlier today were short doesn't mean there wasn't thought behind them. And it doesn't help to come back with "That is an awful answer." or why? why? why? why? Talk to your coach too to fill in the gaps. Ask pointed questions.

[Golfingdad]

46 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

Hello. My name is My Ego Montoya. You killed my golf swing. Prepare to die.

Stop saying that!

39 minutes ago, billchao said:

I'm going to be honest with you here, take it how you will, but as a third party to this conflict, it looks to me that it is your ego that appears to be the issue here. You posted something along the lines of "I've got it" and when @iacas told you that you didn't, you got defensive.

Take a step back, read everything over again from another perspective, please.

Bingo.  To think that Erik or Mike has it in for you (or anybody else who starts a swing thread on here and gets offended) would mean that you'd have to start under the premise that they have extra time on their hands to spend goofing around and picking on strangers for no reason.  Fact is, if either of them (or, for that matter, about 99.99% of any of the regulars on this site) is posting on a swing thread that is not their own, they are trying to help that person.

Remember that throughout the course of the conversation and it should be pretty difficult to draw the conclusions you've drawn.

In your case, Tony, you got too defensive and started attacking them.  Despite whether or not you liked what you heard, they were offering (free) advice and they were answering your questions.

Take Bill's advice and step back, take a deep breath, and move on.  And stick to one coach to avoid the confusion as well.

[pumaAttack]

When you post a video showing your progress only to get ripped apart for other parts of your swing that are not a priority it makes you want to never post again.  

I'm very disappointed in the behavior of a lot of the instructors on here.

 

lets review the timeline. 

First I posted a video of me working on my shallowing swing.  I never stated it was perfect. 

I get a response saying my backswing is wrong.

I follow up asking why it matters if I hit other positions correctly.

i get told "because"

I follow up asking why it matters if my backswing is off if my downswing hits key checkpoints.

I get told I am not hitting the spots. 

I ask why not stating my angles are where my coach outlined them to be.

I get shown my angles are wrong. 

I counter stating they are still shallow and match that of pros.  

I get told angles don't matter. (Even though I was wrong before because my angles were off.)

This goes ignored and I get told my backswing is wrong.

I detail my Evolvr coach doesn't have my backswing as a priority because he liked my positions at A4 and 5. 

These get ignored. 

I point out my friend has the same shallow to slightly steep and is told his swing is perfect and his Evolr coach says no changes are needed in his swing.  It's great as is. 

I follow up why his shallow to steep is fine and mine isn't.  These comments get ignored. 

 

Yet I am the one with the ego problem...

Edited May 28, 2016 by pumaAttack

[mvmac]

6 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

I have been working with an Evolvr coach for a while and he has not addressed those concerns at a2 and in fact called my position a perfect example and something he would show to other students.  So your instructions do not match up for me.   It is frustrating to hear you make comments like that when they don't match up with what my coach says.  

I still don't get why it matters if it goes from shallow to slightly steeper on the downswing.   Look at Furyks swing, is he hitting all the key positions?  If I hit A5 to A6 why does A3 matter anymore?

If Robert Rock had the same angle at 5 as he does at 3 he would miss the ball too..  What is the difference in steep to shallow?  OR shallow to steep, but still outside the ball?

@pumaAttack, please read what I've said, I've answered your questions and spent my free time trying to help you. I'll try to be as clear as I can.

It's not just about hitting positions or angles, you have to consider the entire motion and how you arrived there. The golf swing is a dynamic movement. There is no "perfect" A4 or A6, etc.

@iacas has already answered this but if you go shallow to steep (what you're doing) the sweetspot is going to want to kick out. You can make compensations so it looks ok but it's not an effective way to hit the ball. It's going to cost you contact control, face control and speed.

If you can go steep to shallow you'll have a better chance of creating the most speed and best contact. A sweetspot kicking out (which yours is) leads to pulls, inconsistent contact and glancing blows.

We've answered your questions but here is more detail (more detail than most students should get):

Shallow to steep = Not Effective, the weight of the clubhead is going to want to be "thrown" out which will have the club working across the ball. It will also widen the arc so in order not to fat it you have to make compensations with your hands/body.

Steep to shallow = Most Effective, potentially creates more speed, on downswing you can load into the ground and rotate while still swinging out (without trying to swing out). Easier to rotate and maintain your tilt because if the sweetspot is kicking out (widens the arc) you have to do something to make room. Very, very few good players swing across the ball on the downswing.

Nobody is out to get you, I had no idea you were still on Evolvr, it would have been helpful to post something like "Here is my latest swing, here's what my Evolvr instructor said my priority is". If you did I would have never posted what I did. I was just trying to help. If @iacas offers his opinion, rather than take the defensive route, give him the benefit of the double and listen to what he's saying, he knows what he's talking about.

Even after this post I get the feeling you'll want to say "But my A6 is perfect!", I'd recommend you take a look at these threads.

 

 

[taxgolf]

I find it becoming a strange discussion. My 2c. Stick with your evolved instructor. Or respect the given instructions. And deal with it. Use what you think is helpfull. Otherwise I do not understand why you would seek advise in this thread. I might be wrong but to me it seems you do not trust your evolved coach and or the given opinions. 

 

To me, it presents an insight how top coaches are looking at your swing.