Slow Play on the PGA Tour, Tiger Shares His Opinion

[I-league]

one radical solution is simply to make tournament golf a 9 hole game. It doesn't actually solve slow play but it avoids having to play/watch 7 hour rounds. It sounds crazy but if it's easier to market and makes golf more TV friendly it could happen one day. It could start with an couple of experimental 9 holes tournaments on the tour and expand from there.

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by I-league

one radical solution is simply to make tournament golf a 9 hole game. It doesn't actually solve slow play but it avoids having to play/watch 7 hour rounds. It sounds crazy but if it's easier to market and makes golf more TV friendly it could happen one day. It could start with an couple of experimental 9 holes tournaments on the tour and expand from there.

Would never happen because sponsors want all the air tme they can get.

[x129]

The slow play rules have a lot of wiggle room in them.  It isn't a clear cut rule like the number of clubs in the bag.  Tiger has been complaining about slow play for years now.  His complaint about rushing the leaders on the 16th hole should not overshadow that. I dislike the rule since it times instances (individual shots) but what we should be concerned about is the total time. If you have shot that taks 2 mins, I am ok with that if you hit all your other shots in 25s. On the other hand if you take 40s on every shot, you suck.

Originally Posted by zeg

The rules are the rules, and should be applied in the same manner to the first group off the tee who have no chance on Sunday as to the last pairing, even when they're both leading by a dozen strokes over 3rd place. Obviously application of the rules shouldn't depend on the television demands, nor should the rules themselves (I'm looking at YOU, NFL).

I agree with your overall point, though. You don't have to be the fastest golfer out there if you want to complain about extremely slow play.

Seriously, but I really wonder what Tiger thinks of this phenomenon.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by x129

The slow play rules have a lot of wiggle room in them.  It isn't a clear cut rule like the number of clubs in the bag.

If so, then that's a very serious problem.

It's obviously going to be tricky because you want to punish people for wasting time, but not for needing time for legitimate reasons. I.e., someone who's playing quickly but has to search for a couple balls should not be punished for taking the time the rules grant him, nor should a golfer be punished if he's slowed down by crowds of spectators as has been discussed upthread. But if the rule really cannot be enforced evenly, it needs to be changed.

[boogielicious]

Where's the proof?  Just saying Tiger is slow is hypothetical at best,  Give us actual evidence of your statement.  I don't see that when he is on camera.

Na wasn't the only slow player.  The Pros seems to wait for their partners shot to even start talking about theirs with their caddie.  It definitely needs to improve.

[walk18]

I'll echo others on Tiger's hypocrisy. He'll walk around his putt all day and read it from 20 different angles before he even gets into his routine.

[BruceMGF]

Originally Posted by zeg

If so, then that's a very serious problem.

It's obviously going to be tricky because you want to punish people for wasting time, but not for needing time for legitimate reasons. I.e., someone who's playing quickly but has to search for a couple balls should not be punished for taking the time the rules grant him, nor should a golfer be punished if he's slowed down by crowds of spectators as has been discussed upthread. But if the rule really cannot be enforced evenly, it needs to be changed.

It would be good if something like chess timing could be worked out:  a base time for the round and additional time per shot (I'm referring to what's called Fischer timing in chess, not the old time-control method).

Problem is:  you're holding up everyone behind you in golf, but not in chess.

I wonder if part of the problem is the general trickiness of today's courses, especially as they're set up for pros.  Every shot requires a big think.  If courses were straightforward, things would go quicker, but pros would all shoot 40 under par - unless courses were lengthened to about 8500 yards.

Then it would take 6 hours just to walk.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by walk18

I'll echo others on Tiger's hypocrisy. He'll walk around his putt all day and read it from 20 different angles before he even gets into his routine.

Prove that Tiger's a slow player.

You can't.

And what you probably don't see is every other player doing just as you described. Thing is, they don't show other players walking around the greens because they haven't won 14 majors.

[brocks]

I'll echo others on Tiger's hypocrisy. He'll walk around his putt all day and read it from 20 different angles before he even gets into his routine.

It's not enough to find examples of where he plays "deliberately;" it has to be when doing so makes his group fall behind. There are days when he can take all kinds of time over his puts, and he still has to wait for the group ahead before he can tee off on the next hole, because an earlier group lost a ball or something and everybody is backed up. Which is why I was kind of amazed that the article someone cited, which recorded players' times over the ball, didn't give any context about how far ahead the next group was. If you get to your ball and the group ahead is still on the green, there's nothing you can do but wait for it to clear.

[chicagogolf]

The tough part about slow play are all the variables: lost balls, wind, many shots on a hole, etc. With all the technology we have, the PGA Tour could easily time each player individually. If you want to look forever for your ball, that could affect your pay check at the end of the tournament. The tour needs to create a STANDARD TIME MEASUREMENT. You go over that time, you pay for it, $1K per minute (2K, 10K, whatever). The younger kids will see this and think "if i want to be on tour, playing this slow will cost me money. better learn how to play faster." I hate having to speed up my own play because a guy in my group can't handle his shit.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by BruceMGF

It would be good if something like chess timing could be worked out:  a base time for the round and additional time per shot (I'm referring to what's called Fischer timing in chess, not the old time-control method).

Problem is:  you're holding up everyone behind you in golf, but not in chess.

I wonder if part of the problem is the general trickiness of today's courses, especially as they're set up for pros.  Every shot requires a big think.  If courses were straightforward, things would go quicker, but pros would all shoot 40 under par - unless courses were lengthened to about 8500 yards.

Then it would take 6 hours just to walk.

The variables are certainly a lot more complicated than in chess, so I think that approach is not using the right measure. You really need something along the lines of a fixed amount of time per stroke after you've found / reached the ball and the group ahead has cleared your landing area. But even that runs into trouble because it's hard to separate the behavior of the golfers within a group.

One other thought is that, for now, I think it's preferable to err on the side of letting players get away with playing a bit too slowly, rather than taking too heavy-handed an approach.

[VMAN]

I haven't read every post...but please can we let these guys use range finders or shotlink!

What do you think they are using on Tuesday and Wednesday to mark distances from various parts of the course in order to suplement the yardage books?  What chaps me is that these guys play in more than four hours as twosomes!

[Sandwedge74]

I don't see Tiger as being a particularly slow player.  Slow play is definitely a real problem at all levels of the game. I like Tiger's idea about removing the warning and going straight to a penalty - some of these tournaments just drag on and I don't believe it's from reading greens too much.

I may get beat up for saying this...but I am totally ok with the pro's or anyone for that matter trying taking extra time to read a difficult putt from more than 6 or 7 feet away. I do think though that watching the pro's stand over a 145 yard shot forever is not really good for the game and I think it's really unfair to the players in their group and the group(s) behind them.

I see it at my local clubs all the time and myself have fallen victim to it. Here I am needing a par or to secure a personal best round and I am sitting on the tee box while I watch the group in front me that either waits for the green to be clear on a par 5 (280 out and a creek to carry) or going to everyone's ball one at a time and ladida da da.... and so forth. Showing no awareness of the folks behind them or possibly in their group.

then I here I am, completely iced over last and important tee shot ....etc etc...

is slow play a fact of playing golf - yes.

does it suck.... **** yes it does.

should something be done about it....probably ..but what?? at a least at the pro level they can enforce fines.

the one caveat would be the final group on sunday....no need to speed them up..they have earned the time and competition they are enduring.

[walk18]

Prove that Tiger's a slow player. You can't. And what you probably don't see is every other player doing just as you described. Thing is, they don't show other players walking around the greens because they haven't won 14 majors.

I don't think I need to prove anything to anyone on this. I've watched it countless times with my own eyes, and that should be good enough to throw in my comment on this thread. Many other players are just as slow too, never said they weren't. But this discussion is about Tiger's comments in particular.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by walk18

I don't think I need to prove anything to anyone on this. I've watched it countless times with my own eyes, and that should be good enough to throw in my comment on this thread. Many other players are just as slow too, never said they weren't. But this discussion is about Tiger's comments in particular.

Of course you can throw your comment in to the thread, but I'm simply suggesting that what you've seen may not really represent reality, for several simple reasons. :)

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by walk18

I don't think I need to prove anything to anyone on this. I've watched it countless times with my own eyes, and that should be good enough to throw in my comment on this thread. Many other players are just as slow too, never said they weren't. But this discussion is about Tiger's comments in particular.

actually, the discussion was about slow play on the PGA tour and what kind of penalties should be accessed.

[x129]

Here is a question. Is a 40s shot clock fair? I would argue that it isn't and something like a total for the hole (i.e. 120s for a par3, 160 par 4) would be better.  If you tee off in 20s, I think it is fair you get another 20s to think about your 2nd shot or read that tricky putt. Heck I would even carry it over a couple of holes (roll over time). It would encourage people to play fast and at the same time allow them to take time when needed.

Originally Posted by Paradox

actually, the discussion was about slow play on the PGA tour and what kind of penalties should be accessed.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Paradox

actually, the discussion was about slow play on the PGA tour and what kind of penalties should be accessed.

I heard a guy on TGC last night (sorry, I forget his name, but he's the guy that sits opposite Tripp Isenhour on one of the wrapup shows) suggest that a way to combat the slow play on the PGA Tour would be to put certain guys on the clock immediately.  He said that the rules officials all know who the slow players are, its not a secret, and they even have them all ranked by speed.  So his suggestion was to take the 10 players or so off the bottom of that list and put them on the clock Thursday on the first tee.  That seems like something that might work.